BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[JWP58]

Up for auction: trophy rocky mounatin elk. Public land, OTC unit. The winner will be provided with Locations via GPS cordinates, up to date picture confrontation with GPS embedded locations. Parking locations and
Spotting locations and specific information that will help you harvest this trophy of a life time.
Starting bid 4250

Oh my! This shocks my conscious!! Yes pass more laws!

 

[ODB]

People that would buy or sell a location are certifiable dipshits, no doubt.
But I’d like to see BHA dedicate their time to something more meaningful, like sue one of the dozens of landowners illegally blocking public roads or trails that lead to our public lands.
A fraction of the $250k they spent on TV commercials against Ryan Zinke could have went a long way to access issues that would directly benefit the members.

They bought TV time? Interesting...

 

[Justin Crossley]

People that would buy or sell a location are certifiable dipshits, no doubt.
But I’d like to see BHA dedicate their time to something more meaningful, like sue one of the dozens of landowners illegally blocking public roads or trails that lead to our public lands.
A fraction of the $250k they spent on TV commercials against Ryan Zinke could have went a long way to access issues that would directly benefit the members.

So you think Robby Denning is a dipshit? Interesting.

 

[MuleyFever]

So selling an animals specific location to who knows how many people on the internet is ok.

Mention a unit number on a forum and everyone loses their minds.

Makes sense.

 

[dirtytough]

Up for auction: trophy rocky mounatin elk. Public land, OTC unit. The winner will be provided with Locations via GPS cordinates, up to date picture confrontation with GPS embedded locations. Parking locations and
Spotting locations and specific information that will help you harvest this trophy of a life time.
Starting bid 4250

And that is worse then an outfitter sending me the same picture, putting me on his horse so I don't have to walk that .5 mile, and then spotting it so I can shoot it at 1200 yards?

At the end of the day you have the exact same outcome. Someone that got help finding an animal to kill. One cost a lot more money and less work. One cost less money but more work. Why is the one that costs more money and less work acceptable but the other not?

 

[elkduds]

Wouldn't such a ban violate interstate commerce? Also, how would a state ban affect federal properties?

On the contrary. Running a moneymaking business on public lands requires payment of fees and compliance w regulations specific to the land management agency. Many of the reasons for this have been addressed above, but not this one: Utilizing public lands for profit means you have to compensate the public land agency by paying a fee. Grazing, logging, outfitting, tour guiding, ski resorts, offroad tours, heliskiing, fishing guides, filming for broadcast, etc. It is a way for these businesses to compensate the landowner (you and I, among billions of others) for some of the value they derive from using the public asset. And these users' fees pay for enforcement of rules. This "licensing" of for-profit users is included in every agency's mandate for multiple uses. If an agency gives away that value to one set of users, here come all the others wanting it for free as well. I don't know if this $ program is a good or bad thing, but it most assuredly is a thing.


After reading the BHA page, I support BHA's view on this, as stated. As a member, I am proud of most of what BHA has accomplished, and of their mission statement. To me it stakes out a common ground for outdoor sports people to coalesce around.

Our Mission

Backcountry Hunters & Anglers seeks to ensure North America's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing in a natural setting, through education and work on behalf of wild public lands and waters.

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/mission_and_values

 

[MtGomer]

So you think Robby Denning is a dipshit? Interesting.

I don’t know Robby Denning or anything about him, so I don’t know. Does he fit what I said?
If so, then yes. I said it pretty clearly and it’s still there to re-read if you didn’t catch it the first time.

 

[dirtytough]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is fair chase for me to pay $9k to shoot a cat out of a tree. But its not fair chase for me to pay $1k for the location of that same cat and go hunt it? I know if I was the cat I would pray to all the cat gods someone paid for my location and not for a guide with dogs.

 

[ArrowForester]

So does this "service" of selling locations come with pictures of the animals sighted or the location features? If so, wouldn't that seller need a permit from the public land agency for filming/photographing for commercial profit? Will each seller need a permit just like a registered guide for providing digital information for sale?

 

[Justin Crossley]

I don’t know Robby Denning or anything about him, so I don’t know. Does he fit what I said?
If so, then yes. I said it pretty clearly and it’s still there to re-read if you didn’t catch it the first time.

Well, He's the co-owner of this forum and also the owner of wescout4u.com

Lucky for you he is in no way a dipshit and welcomes different points of view even if they differ from his. On the other hand, we don't tolerate name calling here so please keep the discussion civil.

 

[BuzzH]

Wouldn't such a ban violate interstate commerce? Also, how would a state ban affect federal properties?

Nope, it does not.

That was argued in the USO case against Arizona...and rectified by Public Law Number 109-13 section 6036 in 2005.

 

[mntnguide]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is fair chase for me to pay $9k to shoot a cat out of a tree. But its not fair chase for me to pay $1k for the location of that same cat and go hunt it? I know if I was the cat I would pray to all the cat gods someone paid for my location and not for a guide with dogs.

Your example is ridiculous. 1st...9k is about double or triple what a good cat hunt would cost outfitted. 2nd..this law is aimed far more at deer and elk locations being sold based on B&C score, not on the ability to just harvest an animal. 3rd...id highly bet you have never been on a cat hunt before with dogs, cause if you have, you would know that far more goes into "catching" a cat. Days if not weeks of hunting, up every morning at 3am looking for tracks, and not to mention having to actually hike in the middle of winter in deep snow. If you ever go on a cat hunt, id bet youd get a far better appreciation for what goes into thinking its "easy"..which is why someone would pay for the houndsmen, who has spent years training and teaching his dogs to not chase deer and elk and stay focused on the track. dont judge things you dont know

 

[BuzzH]

You definitely got through to me this time. It is definitely fair chase for me to pay $9k and be led around by the hand to shoot a cat out of a tree. But it is not to pay $1k for the info on where someone saw that cat and actually hunt it.

I understand now. Makes total sense. I can't believe I was so dense to think it would be fair for the cat if someone saw it a month before and sold me its location. I better stick to shooting cats out of a tree that a dog ran up there because that is way more fair for the animal.

smh

What about if someone sells the location of the track?

Because that is going on. The method of hunting lions is to use dogs, but doesn't it make some kind of sense for the hunter and dog owner to at least find their own lion tracks to run?

IMO/E a bit part of the challenge with lion hunting is having to locate the track, seeing how the dogs work, and having to chase them all over hells half acre to hopefully tree them.

It wouldn't be even close to the same experience if we would have been buying track locations from guys off the internet.

Maybe you don't see the difference, but I think many surely do.

 

[MtGomer]

I’ll consider myself ‘lucky’ to be allowed to remain in your digital presence after expressing a view that I think is consistent with upholding fair chase and keeping in check the commercialization of hunting.
In my opinion, people that would pay for something like that are in it for the wrong reasons. The hunting experience can’t be had for a sum of money. I don’t imagine that is a view that is all that controversial on a forum of what appears to be made up of some of the more serious backcountry, DIY hunters out there.
Thanks for the concern about the use of a four letter word as well. I should be better. My wife tells me too.

I still believe in my original position. BHA may be taking a stance I favor, but in my opinion, there are bigger fish out there for BHA to fry and they have the resources to fry them, so let’s do it.

 

[MichaelO]

One thing is absolutely certain, we either agree to regulate ourselves or we become divided and regulations will be forced on us.

 

[tthompson4]

I don't feel like selling a waypoint where you saw an animal a day, week, or month ago is the same as selling an actual animal. You could come down a trail and tell a guy coming up oh there is a big herd of elk 1.2 miles up that way in that group of aspens... Does that guarantee he's gonna kill one? Absolutely not. They could be in the next county by the time they get up there.

Its no more of a guaranteed hunt than with a guide, actually i would say much less certain than going out with a guide.

Elk maybe but whitetail have a much smaller home area.


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[dirtytough]

Your example is ridiculous. 1st...9k is about double or triple what a good cat hunt would cost outfitted. 2nd..this law is aimed far more at deer and elk locations being sold based on B&C score, not on the ability to just harvest an animal. 3rd...id highly bet you have never been on a cat hunt before with dogs, cause if you have, you would know that far more goes into "catching" a cat. Days if not weeks of hunting, up every morning at 3am looking for tracks, and not to mention having to actually hike in the middle of winter in deep snow. If you ever go on a cat hunt, id bet youd get a far better appreciation for what goes into thinking its "easy"..which is why someone would pay for the houndsmen, who has spent years training and teaching his dogs to not chase deer and elk and stay focused on the track. dont judge things you dont know

I have read Alberta is the place to go for a good lion hunt. The first place that came up on a google search was $12,500. $9k doesn't seem that far off?

Nope I've never needed to buy a lion... I mean pay for a guide to put a cat up a tree so I could shoot it. I have been lucky enough to get a few without the use of dogs.

Ok this is rokslide so maybe I give the members to much the benefit of the doubt. But I would bet most of the members are in shape enough to get up at 3am, ride around in a truck until they find a track, and keep up with the guide until they get to the tree. Again it takes zero hunting skill on the "hunters" part to go on a guided hunt and shoot a cat out of a tree.

Here are a couple questions for you. Which way is easier to kill a cat? By paying for a guided hunt or paying for the location of a cat?

Do you use gps tracking collars on your dogs?

And lastly because you think its so hard I guarantee that my wife who has hunted with me for 2 years now and killed 2 mule deer could go on a guided cat hunt and kill a cat. But she would have absolutely zero chance to buy the location of an animal and kill it on her own.

 

[tthompson4]

This is to guide service as Uber is to cab drivers.

Uber claims to not be a cab service but put heavily regulated cabies who spend small fortunes on licensing out of business.

I support BHA on this. Perhaps the alternative is that anyone wishing to sell this guide service needs to register as a guide and abide by the same regulations as guides.


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[BuzzH]

One thing is absolutely certain, we either agree to regulate ourselves or we become divided and regulations will be forced on us.

True story, and the more technology, selling animal locations, etc. increases success rates the shorter our time in the field becomes and the less opportunity we have at tags.

Game and Fish Managers will make the needed adjustments in quotas, season length, etc. when we become victims of our own success...just the way it is. I've already seen it happen, many times.

 

[weaver]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is.
There aren't that many guys out there that can find trophy bucks, bulls on a consistent basis and even if they sell that info what are the odds that a guys going to go there a month later on public land and kill that animal. You still have to execute the hunt and honestly most hunters probably couldn't take advantage of knowing the exact location of a specific animal the day before their hunt.
I just don't see the slam dunk scenario that you guys are talking about.

I do think that people scouting and selling locations should be required to be licensed outfitters.



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