BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[ODB]

I’m with BHA.

It isn’t in the spirit of Fair Chase and undercuts traditional outfitting and guiding.

Plus, unlike guide services, I can’t see how this can be regulated by land managers so there could be an increase of people out there, creating impact, just to spot an animal and call themselves legitimate.

Guides are regulated and pay a fee to land managers. Shit like this is a slippery slope and evidence we all need to help update Fair Chase concepts in the digital age.

Who says guiding is fair chase?

BHA kinda sounds like the guy in Jackson hole.

 

[CorbLand]

Anyone have a link to the actual bill? I am curious if it outlaws it for both guides and general public or just the public.

I could see an argument to be made for outlawing it for the general public and forcing you to be a legitimate guide to do this.

 

[Tenstrike]

I picture guys flying drones all over, logging GPS coordinates on good bucks and bulls and quickly offering the coordinates on Craigslist, is this where hunting is going? Is this inevitable? God help us.

 

[wyodan]

Anyone have a link to the actual bill? I am curious if it outlaws it for both guides and general public or just the public.

I could see an argument to be made for outlawing it for the general public and forcing you to be a legitimate guide to do this.

https://legiscan.com/MT/text/SB127/2019

I only got through the first paragraph, but it appear to outlaw maps, drawings, ect. as well.

 

[CorbLand]

https://legiscan.com/MT/text/SB127/2019

I only got through the first paragraph, but it appear to outlaw maps, drawings, ect. as well.

So it only bans it for the general public. If your a guide you can still do this.

It actually makes sense to only allow those that have a guide license to do this.

 

[PNWTO]

Who says guiding is fair chase?

BHA kinda sounds like the guy in Jackson hole.

Outfitting and guiding is heavily regulated since they have some elevated privileges on public land and facilitate the consumption of natural resources. They pay the land managers and closely monitor their impact on the system. I will repeat the fact the such activities are few and exclusive for a given area.

Chumps selling Garmin pins on Facebook are only so noble in fantasy.

 

[chasewild]

That’s some tap dance on service/commodity.

Selling a dot on a map is also a service; it guarantees less than the guide. The animal likely won’t be where the dot is, but I’d bet the guide knows the locations of the animals on a day to day basis better than the dot. Which is more fair chase at the end of the day, A shot in the dark, or having your hand held all the way? Frankly, I’d be willing to bet a guy who buys a dot will actually work harder since he’s likely unfamiliar with the area, decreasing his chances.

And for the record, I’d never buy a dot on a map and think anyone who would is a moron. But hey, que sera sera...

No tap dancing here.

1. A commodity is a basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type. Commodities are the inputs in the production of other goods or services. The commodity here, is the location, identified by a GPS number. There is no service provided by the commodity trader.

2. Again, whether or not someone works just as hard as the guided client is irrelevant. Wildlife are held in trust for you and I. Wildlife are not free market products that can be bought and sold on the free market. It's axiomatic federal (and state) wildlife law.

 

[BuzzH]

I thought bha only takes a public stand on issues strictly about public land access?

As much as you talk chit about BHA, one would think you at least looked into their issues statement. Tough read I guess when the ax grinding takes up all your time.

100% in their wheelhouse:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/fair_chase

 

[Billinsd]

I think it’s a good bill. IMO there’s just too much emphasis on the antlers anymore. Without that, selling coords isn’t even a business.

Just outlaw antlered hunts. End of problem. Laws are great aren't they?

 

[Jebuwh]

I don't feel like selling a waypoint where you saw an animal a day, week, or month ago is the same as selling an actual animal. You could come down a trail and tell a guy coming up oh there is a big herd of elk 1.2 miles up that way in that group of aspens... Does that guarantee he's gonna kill one? Absolutely not. They could be in the next county by the time they get up there.

Its no more of a guaranteed hunt than with a guide, actually i would say much less certain than going out with a guide.

 

[Rich M]

Can you explain how this isn't fair chase, but using a guide is? The article also states that its not fair to other hunters. So is it more fair to other hunters to use a guide so you have 2 sets of eyes looking for that animal instead of 1 set? The article is stupid the way it is written.

My take is that it commercializes hunting. Just like a hundred other things. But because it is so small BHA has the balls to take this issue on compared to taking on outfitting, go hunt, onX, huntinfool, etc. Then if one of the states does pass a law saying you can't sell the coordinates BHA will thump their chest and talk about all the good they do for wildlife and public lands.

IMO, this should not be regulated.

Must have been a nice deer/goat/sheep/ whatever that the guy from BHA lost to some DIYer. It is public land - get in line and hope for the best, be happy for the other guy, not jealous.

Can you see stalking that trophy critter and as you peak out from behind a rock to shoot, you see a bullet whack into it from across the valley 950 yards away. Oopsie! Not your trophy anymore. If the stalker happens to be an influencing member of BHA, then you'll have a stance on shooting distances and acceptable calibers.

It just isn't gonna stop with the scouting, that's just the stepping off place... There is no happy ending.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Just what we need. More laws and bans to drive us apart and conquer us.

I've never used a scouting service or paid someone for information but I sure hope every single one of the guys in this thread who agree with BHA on this have NEVER gotton information about an area from someone else.

Divide and conquer. That's what the anti-hunting crowd is all about and it's working.

 

[Rich M]

IMO there’s just too much emphasis on the antlers anymore. Without that, selling coords isn’t even a business.

Just cause you scouted all summer doesn't give you the rights to the animal either. Them pesky out of state hunters...wait 12 years to draw, pull the permit and how dare they do what they can to shoot a big one.

Flip side - Without the antler issue, selling coordinates isn't a big deal.

Antis have nothing to do with it - simple jealousy and envy. He shot MY deer...

 

[wyodan]

Must have been a nice deer/goat/sheep/ whatever that the guy from BHA lost to some DIYer. It is public land - get in line and hope for the best, be happy for the other guy, not jealous.

I definitely don’t see it as DIY if you bought a location for the “trophy”

 

[dirtytough]

Obviously this is a pretty hot issue. My issue with it is it says its not fair to other hunters and that its not fair chase.

Ok in hunting there are a lot of things that aren't fair. I might have more time off which will give me an advantage over other hunters. Are they going to start limiting the number of days you can scout to make it fair?

As for fair chase. If an acquaintance tells you about an animal and you kill it its fair chase. If a guide takes you right to an animal and spots it for you its fair chase. If you pay for the location its not fair chase?

In all 3 scenarios someone else told you about the animal. In 2 of the scenarios you paid for the info. But only one of the scenarios isn't fair chase?


For the guys that are talking about using drones etc this doesn't prohibit their use. Its about fair chase and a level playing field lmao

 

[chasewild]

Just what we need. More laws and bans to drive us apart and conquer us.

I've never used a scouting service or paid someone for information but I sure hope every single one of the guys in this thread who agree with BHA on this have NEVER gotton information about an area from someone else.

Divide and conquer. That's what the anti-hunting crowd is all about and it's working.

Have I "gotton" information from guys who drew a good unit before I did? Absolutely. Have I met guys on the trail and exchanged some information about where the bulls were bugling? Of course. Have I paid them for it? Nope.

The problem with the exchange of consideration for the location of an animal, again, is the basic violation of the public trust doctrine.

And, quite frankly, let's not make it easier to "divide and conquer" by allowing behavior that the NON-hunting -- and not yet ANTI-hunting crowd -- finds reprehensible.

 

[dirtytough]

While guiding for dall sheep sometimes we would have multiple legal rams spotted. When the next hunter arrived we would take him right to the legal ram and if he could shoot straight he would kill it. That to me seems like a lot more of an advantage since its current info then telling someone where that sheep was a month before the season starts?

So is that fair chase?

 

[dirtytough]

And, quite frankly, let's not make it easier to "divide and conquer" by allowing behavior that the NON-hunting -- and not yet ANTI-hunting crowd -- finds reprehensible.

Kind of like shooting a cat out of a tree?

I pay a guide $9k, follow him to a tree that his dogs ran an animal up, shoot the cat out of the tree and call it fair chase. I did absolutely nothing except open my check book, go for a walk that someone else made the decisions on, and shoot a cat that is in a tree at 25 yards? I am a fair chase hunter in that scenario.

But if I paid $1k for the location of where someone had seen the cat a month ago, hiked in there, spotted it, and killed it thats not fair chase?

Yep BHA is full of it on this one.

 

[Justin Crossley]

I have no issue whatsoever with a person who loves hunting and scouting but wants to cover a small percentage of his/her costs in fuel, gear, and time by selling information to someone else. Just my opinion and I don't have an issue with the guys who don't see it that way.

 

[bsnedeker]

I think you all are missing the point in this one. The problem isn't selling a spot to only one person, you're correct in that is no different than a guide. The problem is selling a spot to anyone and everyone. If services are collecting spots from people and then selling them to groups of people all of the sudden those spots are ruined. In my opinion it has nothing to do with fair chase and everything to do with ruining good hunting grounds by selling that information to every lazy ass with an internet connection.

Good in bha and Montana for stopping this before it starts.

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