Better "stock" up boys

[sndmn11]

Wow, you really think that some teacher carrying a gun is going to flip their lid and shoot a student just because that student is acting out? I was a teacher, never was I in a situation where I even thought about harming a child, and I was in some pretty hairy situations with kids much larger than me. I never saw any other teacher react in a manner that was violent or that I thought might lead to bodily harm. If a teacher wanted to kill a kid, they could stab them with some scissors or with a knife. We were allowed to carry pockets knives less than 3" blades where I worked. Never once did I even consider reaching for my knife, even when I had a 275lb football player come after me, and he was hell bent on harming me.

In all honesty, it is a simple solution. People just don't want it to be simple. A simple solution is not enacting more gun laws. Even if you banned every firearm sale forever from here on, it would take years to see the effects. People would still have access to all types of firearms. The simple solution is allowing people to be able to defend themselves and those around them. I fully understand that most people have no clue how to react when the shit hits the fan. But, not allowing people at least the chance to defend themselves is ludicrous in my opinion. Allowing a teacher to carry a firearm to defend themselves and their students at work is really no different than allowing someone to purchase a gun to defend their home. No gun owner gets upset when someone who has never owned or shot a gun decides to buy one for home protection. But, start talking about allowing that same person to have the option to carry that firearm (if they meet the training standards and permit standards enacted by their state) to their work place and all of a sudden people think it's just the craziest idea in the world.

I am with you, I am shocked that someone would think a teacher is unstable simply because of their profession.

Colorado has had school districts for a few decades now that have full time armed security with arrest powers employed by the school district who work in conjunction with their respective law enforcement agencies. Colorado also has a handful of school districts that have volunteer trained teachers who are armed by their own choice. The programs I am aware of have an incredible wealth of knowledgeable instructors who donate their time and provide training that is on-going and intense. These folks remain anonymous for obvious reasons, and the programs are not widely publicized.

I do not have dreams of a Bruce Willis-esque teacher taking down the squad of highly organized school terrorists. I go back to the idea of soft targets, and EVERY time one of these incidents occurs, the first instance of being challenged the suspect gives up. Mind you, we have not had an instance where the suspect has actually trained with their weapon, and ANY hiccup in their "idea" has shown that they cease and immediately move to their escape or their own demise. I would absolutely rather have my child in a place where I know that there is some form of capable defense rather than KNOW that there is no defense (just like the suspect does). Maybe an analogy that would work here is asking yourself if you would rather hunt a rabbit on a soccer field or a grizzly in the brush with a recurve?

Edit: I misspoke earlier, I remembered the shooting of officers in Dallas a few years ago, the suspect was trained and did fight.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Let's see....

I'm not really so concerned about a teacher simply losing it and shooting a bad kid. On the other hand, what's to stop an armed teacher from gunning down an attacking student looking for a fight? Would Americans support that? Does the mere presence of civilian firearms in many schools increase the odds of a miscreant adult/teen disarming a teacher...or figuring out a way to get hands on a weapon...or otherwise using their endless wiles to provoke and agitate an armed teacher? You can't have a shooting inside a school if you don't let the first gun get in there...and that's an indisputable fact.

Scoot, you asked me about the expense of gun-proofing our schools. It will be expensive. What will armed officers cost a school district every single year to infinity? Armed officers and teachers won't be a guarantee that mass murder doesn't happen. They would be there to interrupt the threat once it got started. Small comfort to the parents who will still see the light of their future...their child...on a cold slab with lifeless color.

This has been compared to airline safety and other high-risk venues. It's costly to solve. You don't improve airline safety by giving guns to flight attendants, crew and some passengers. You keep ALL weapons out of the cabin (school, courthouse, etc) and you prevent death. There is really no better or more effective option than exclusion. Shooting back is an after-the-killing-starts strategy and might cost a little less dollars but some parents and school kids will still have to pay the ultimate price. We have some tough decisions to make.

And meanwhile people keep wanting their guns....or wanting to take away guns. The water is frothing while children get no protection. It disgusts me.

 

[Tod osier]

I don't see this considered much, but what about: armed officers that are teachers? armed teachers that are officers? I talk to a lot of college age folks and there is quite a bit of overlap (more than I would think) in those considering a career in law enforcement and in teaching. Generally, they are folks that want to make a difference in their community and are looking to be part of the community.

 

[Beendare]

Arming teachers...is only a tiny part of the solution.

We have to keep the weapons out to begin with. Heck, there was a cop at that Florida school and he did nothing. Its easy to talk about lethal force....but actually doing it is another matter.

Do you realize that only something like 10% of the soldiers in WWII did all of the fighting? Lethal force is not something to be taken lightly.

Keep guns out- check

Many of these shooters are known beforehand....but the school and law enforcement CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Giving them the tools is a HUGE part of the solution of prevention.

 

[bmart2622]

IMO teachers should not be armed while at school. Why? Because they are teachers, they are not law enforcement, military, or security. I know full well what teachers are capable of, I have been married to one for 15 yrs, my wife is a very capable woman but she should not be armed at school. It has nothing to do with capability.

 

[Farmingdale's Finest]

Who needs them? We as responsible gun owners can make a concession on that as what is the prupose of a bump stock.

of course this is all a knee jerk on the Florida shooting- Good, we need to address these shootings.

The Dems are using it as a fundraiser, "Ban Guns...donate to the Dems"

We will never have legitimate policy when people are too stupid to recognize that it isn't "One thing" that's the problem. ...and the politicians use it as a fundraiser for gawds sake.

We need to address mental health issues first and foremost.

We need to educate everyone as to the signs on this mental instability and report it....all of the signs are there in most if not all of these shootings. This includes the public...situational awareness

We need to train schools for the eventuality

We need to have a division of law enforcement and institutions that deals with the mentally unstable.

We need to make our schools safer whether it be guards, metal detectors, limited entry/multiple emergency exits- whatever it takes

We need to do more to make sure guns are not accessible to kids or mentally ill adults

i'm sure there are 10 more things we can do to severely limit the school shootings...it is NOT just "Ban guns" problem solved....silly Politicians

This is perfect! I just wish we would hear the same thing from ANY politician!

 

[gelton]

As mentioned my wife is a teacher and I support their ability to be armed because of two simple reasons. Firstly because no one should ever be forced to be a victim. In a school setting without any ability to defend themselves (forget the children for a second) they are just that - a victim.

Secondly, because most teachers feel like a second parent to those kids. As parents know, we will do anything to defend our children - women maybe even more so. Teachers would be no different, I believe that most of them would give their lives to protect their classroom. This has already been shown numerous times.

So those that think that they might fold under the pressure or that it would be a detriment to safety are partially right, many of them might fold, but it only takes one to stand up. I have enough faith in our teachers to know for certain that at least a portion of them would.

Teachers shouldn't be forced to carry, but those that want to, and go through INTENSIVE training should be able to if they desire.

 

[bmart2622]

What teachers should be trained in is simple life saving or preserving measures like proper tourniquet application and stopping blood loss.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

Let's see....

I'm not really so concerned about a teacher simply losing it and shooting a bad kid. On the other hand, what's to stop an armed teacher from gunning down an attacking student looking for a fight? Would Americans support that? Does the mere presence of civilian firearms in many schools increase the odds of a miscreant adult/teen disarming a teacher...or figuring out a way to get hands on a weapon...or otherwise using their endless wiles to provoke and agitate an armed teacher? You can't have a shooting inside a school if you don't let the first gun get in there...and that's an indisputable fact.

Scoot, you asked me about the expense of gun-proofing our schools. It will be expensive. What will armed officers cost a school district every single year to infinity? Armed officers and teachers won't be a guarantee that mass murder doesn't happen. They would be there to interrupt the threat once it got started. Small comfort to the parents who will still see the light of their future...their child...on a cold slab with lifeless color.

This has been compared to airline safety and other high-risk venues. It's costly to solve. You don't improve airline safety by giving guns to flight attendants, crew and some passengers. You keep ALL weapons out of the cabin (school, courthouse, etc) and you prevent death. There is really no better or more effective option than exclusion. Shooting back is an after-the-killing-starts strategy and might cost a little less dollars but some parents and school kids will still have to pay the ultimate price. We have some tough decisions to make.

And meanwhile people keep wanting their guns....or wanting to take away guns. The water is frothing while children get no protection. It disgusts me.

this is truth right here.... when 9/11 happened we didn't go after legislation that outlawed box cutters, we didn't consider arming pilots and attendants. We made it virtually impossible to get a weapon into the cabin of a plane with it's owner. The same concept NEEDS to happen in schools. If we just tackle AR15's or arm security guards.... this will continue to some extent.

 

[jmez]

I find all the talk of the armed teacher/guard a bit ironic in this case, as there was fully trained armed guard hiding behind a concrete pillar outside as all of this went on.

 

[timekiller13]

I bet you were also never in a situation where you wanted to have sex with one or your students and likely don't know any teachers that did. Yet there are news stories pretty much monthly now from around the country where that very thing is happening.

There are always two sides to the coin. There are always going to be bad teachers as well as good. No different than any other profession. If you arm teachers it is only a matter of time until some dumbass goes postal and shoots up the school. By the same token, someone capable of this will likely do it anyway, laws or not. I guess the question then is do you do anything that may enable the behavior in any way.

One of my co-workers was fired for sleeping with two female students. Another teacher resigned after having an affair with both another teacher and a student. That was 10 years ago. While in high school, I knew of several students who were sleeping with teachers. That was 20 years ago. That crap has been going on since the beginning of time. You just hear about it more now due to social media.

Several people have commented that we just need to keep guns out of schools, period. Umm, it's already illegal to bring guns onto school property. We see how well that's working. The only way you can ever possibly prevent any guns from being brought onto school property is if guns didn't exist. But guns do exist and have existed for hundreds of years and you can't get rid of them. Even if having a firearm is 100% illegal, someone will still get one and bring it onto school grounds if they so choose.

Everyone seems to think that having some armed guards or armed teachers in the school makes it seem like an unsafe/military/prison atmosphere. We are not talking about having military personnel in full body armor standing outside of every door, frisking every person that walks by while their partner holds them at gunpoint. We are talking about allowing trained, law abiding citizens to exercise a right many of them already exercise outside of the workplace. That is the right to carry a firearm and defend themselves and their loved ones if the situation arises. I completely understand the psychological aspects of killing. I've read all of Grossman's books. Everyone thinks they are Rambo, but when the time comes, most people freeze or panic. But, not everyone freezes and panics. We see it every day. Ordinary citizens can do extraordinary things under pressure. Armed civilians take down would be attackers all the time. All you have to do is google the stories of normal people, not LEOs or former Green Berets, who were carrying a concealed weapon who were put in the unfortunate situation where they had to use it. Human instinct kicks in, fight or flight. If you can't run, you fight.

I don't want to fight, I don't want to kill. I have a security system on my house to deter would be intruders, because I would rather not have to shoot someone. But, if that doesn't work, I have loaded guns ready to use if I have to. I carry pepper spray and a gun when I go out. I don't want to kill anyone, if pepper spray will work, then great. But if not, I have a gun. The point is there is nothing wrong with being prepared. If one safety system fails, what's wrong with having a back-up (or two or three) in place? Denying people their right to defend themselves properly is ludicrous to me.

 

[jmez]

Again, the major problem with the armed guard/teacher being a viable solution. There was one hiding outside with his gun behind a concrete pillar. He never entered the building. He was a former LEO. He had extensive training. I think you would have a whole lot more success putting your efforts toward keeping them out in the first place.

 

[airlocksniffer]

I find all the talk of the armed teacher/guard a bit ironic in this case, as there was fully trained armed guard hiding behind a concrete pillar outside as all of this went on.

Yeah I just read something that perhaps he was trained/instructed to not enter an active shooter situation alone. Either way, when you are one dude with a pistol vs someone with much more firepower would you do any different? When you are an armed teacher and kids are dead and dying around you are you going to be cool enough to engage with the shooter? That said, armed personnel could be one part of a solution but it's not a panacea.

 

[jmez]

I honestly don't know if I would do anything different. I have never been in such a situation. I would like to think that I would but until someone is actually in that situation they can not honestly answer the question. Statistics would show that the vast majority of people would do exactly what this guy did. A smaller % would think they were going to do something until they got inside in the middle of that horror, would then shit their pants and get killed. A even smaller % would be able to go in there in a functional capacity and neutralize the threat.

 

[Scoot]

Wow, you really think that some teacher carrying a gun is going to flip their lid and shoot a student just because that student is acting out?

Absolutely I do. I'd also argue that if you don't, you're pretty naive. Students do a lot more than "act out", as I'm sure you know, since you were a teacher. Students can put teachers in really terrible situations at times.

I was a teacher, never was I in a situation where I even thought about harming a child, and I was in some pretty hairy situations with kids much larger than me. I never saw any other teacher react in a manner that was violent or that I thought might lead to bodily harm. If a teacher wanted to kill a kid, they could stab them with some scissors or with a knife. We were allowed to carry pockets knives less than 3" blades where I worked. Never once did I even consider reaching for my knife, even when I had a 275lb football player come after me, and he was hell bent on harming me. .

Of course you didn't- I assume you to be relatively stable and not someone who'd ever do anything crazy like that, just like 99+% of other teachers. According to the National Center for Education Statistics public schools employed 3.2 million FTE teachers in the fall of 2017. You mean to tell me that of 3.2 million people none of them are terrible candidates to carry a gun? None of them wouldn't do something really stupid if put in a terrible place with quick access to a gun? The vast, vast majority of teachers are great, but no chance I'll believe some very small percentage of them should never have access to a gun in school.

 

[Scoot]

...but those that want to, and go through INTENSIVE training should be able to if they desire.

That would be your opinion. You can state it as if it's a fact, but it's merely your opinion, and mine happens to be diametrically opposed to yours. I believe that would be a terrible idea.

 

[bmart2622]

Im with you Scoot, its a horrible idea and waaaay more bad would come from it than good.

 

[gelton]

That would be your opinion. You can state it as if it's a fact, but it's merely your opinion, and mine happens to be diametrically opposed to yours. I believe that would be a terrible idea.

Using the words want and should explicitly characterize the statement as an opinion and not fact...but thanks for clarifying the obvious.

 

[gelton]

this is truth right here.... when 9/11 happened we didn't go after legislation that outlawed box cutters, we didn't consider arming pilots and attendants. We made it virtually impossible to get a weapon into the cabin of a plane with it's owner. The same concept NEEDS to happen in schools. If we just tackle AR15's or arm security guards.... this will continue to some extent.

Um, wrong. Pilots did arm themselves after 911 and it sure has been terrible with tons of inadvertent deaths.

More airline pilots toting guns after 9/11 attacks - latimes

 

[5MilesBack]

As parents we are responsible for the safety and welfare of our children. I carry everywhere, no matter where we are or where we are going. Why? Because I take my family's safety seriously. When we drop them off at school, we transfer that safety responsibility to the school and the staff. If that takes an armed staff to accomplish that, I'm OK with that. If that takes me as a parent patrolling the campus, I'm OK with that too. Our safety is not the responsibility of the government or the police force. It is ours.

There seems to be way too many sheep in society today, and on top of that there's too many sheep that appear to reject the protection from sheep dogs. I guess that's their choice, however, as blanket policy that also affects the children of those that want that protection but are denied the legal right to provide that. That's messed up.

Excluding all guns from a school seems to have been working pretty well so far, so that's the logical direction that should be taken......sarcasm.

I'm not a political guy. I believe the best most logical decisions should be made for every situation regardless of where one stands.......in government and in every day life. Any compromise on the best most logical decision.......THAT is politics, and not in the best interest of our nation or our citizens.

How do we prevent crime? We stop it in its tracks when it rears it's ugly head. Unless someone has the ability to predict and know what every single criminal mind is about to do, that's what you do.........respond to the situation. How do we effectively "respond"? We train and practice like any other endeavor.

Like I said earlier........if 99.99% of our population can't stop the .01% in their crimes in their tracks, then we are a nation of completely inept sheep and maybe we deserve what we get.