Best Pheasant/Grouse/Family Dog

[WRO]

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[johnnycake]

How do they have more mental and physical power than a lab? I’m curious as I have seen a couple try and run simple concepts and they were over whelmed.

I'm a former lab guy myself. They are great family dogs and excellent retrievers. But, mentally they as a whole aren't the smartest dogs around. They have one main skill that they've been developed to do, and they generally do it very well: retrieve. High end retrieve training is very much a skill set based on a dog looking to/listening for the handler to get direction on where to go and what to do, and then obeying those commands.

Labs tend to not think for themselves too much, which is where the versatile breeds differ. This is what makes it easier for a less experienced handler to get good performance out of a lab than a versatile breed like a pudelpointer. Versatile breeds are generally independent problem solvers. This doesn't usually mesh well in retriever trials where the dog is expected to run straight lines, unless directed to turn, until the target is found. Versatile dogs are more prone to look at likely cover and conditions, then break out into a search for the target with it's nose using the wind. Casting and line work can be done, even very well, by versatile dogs but it is harder to train them to ignore that independent instinct vs a lab.

To me, pudelpointers require more mental exercise that require them to problem solve tasks in order to be satisfied and well behaved than labs do. A mentally unfulfilled versatile dog is usually a complete tire-fire, and the same can be said for a lot of working and sporting breeds including labs. But I see a lot more labs (even well bred ones) as a percentage that are complacent being just pets on the couch and in the yard than versatile dogs. I look at it like simple minds, simple pleasures kind of a thing. Versatile dogs tend to want some level of understanding "why" a task is being asked and not just learning the "how" to do it. My experiences with my pudelpointers and others I've trained with (and a bunch of other versatile breeds) leave me pretty sure that outside of retrieve skills, pudelpointers learn tasks (be they obedience/behavior, agility, hunting, etc) faster than labs. If you have one dog who learns to do 100 tasks well to excellently and compare it to another dog that learns to do 1-3 things excellently and 10 other things good enough to well, my opinion is that the first dog has more mental capacity. Yours could differ and that's fine.

Physically, I'll put the stamina in the field and for swimming time on just about any pudelpointer out there against the top end labs. Seen it a lot. Look at the build of the chest and legs of a pudelpointer compared to a lab. Where labs can at times outlast pudelpointers is in cold water conditions--but that is more due to labs being physically thicker built and having more body mass than pudelpointers. A 40-60 lbs dog is going to lose heat in the water faster than a 55-80lbs dog. Outside of the water, the individual pudelpointer's coat comes into play. Some, like my 6yr old dry off in the air just as fast as any lab in the same conditions, but ones with softer coats won't. A wet dog is a cold dog.

 

[PAPAROD]

Thanks for the response guys, I did some more digging around this weekend with breeders in the state asking a lot of questions. I think you are right by locating a breeder that does more all around work with the dogs/ pups vs ones that kennel them 24/7 unless running field trials.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

GSP without a doubt.

 

[Buzby]

Jonnycake is spot on. If you’re a lab guy, it will take a bit to “get” versatile breeds. Versatile dogs are more independent, I rarely need to speak to my dog when we’re hunting. Labs are more driven by their handlers, responding to commands. You can’t run a versatile dog on something like bumper drills for an hour like a lab. They will get board and you’ll loose ground. I HIGHLY recommend finding your nearest NAVHDA chapter and attending a couple training days before you decide to switch over.

And if you think a Visla is ornery, Drahthaars are not the breed for you!

 

[KurtR]

Jonnycake is spot on. If you’re a lab guy, it will take a bit to “get” versatile breeds. Versatile dogs are more independent, I rarely need to speak to my dog when we’re hunting. Labs are more driven by their handlers, responding to commands. You can’t run a versatile dog on something like bumper drills for an hour like a lab. They will get board and you’ll loose ground. I HIGHLY recommend finding your nearest NAVHDA chapter and attending a couple training days before you decide to switch over.

And if you think a Visla is ornery, Drahthaars are not the breed for you!

But i dont think you can say smarter. They are more in it for them selves which i have seen. But if they were smarter they should be able to do what labs do but there hasnt been one that has passed the grand yet. Last year a draht made it to the third series and thats the farthest a versatile has ever made it.

 

[Buzby]

But i dont think you can say smarter. They are more in it for them selves which i have seen. But if they were smarter they should be able to do what labs do but there hasnt been one that has passed the grand yet. Last year a draht made it to the third series and thats the farthest a versatile has ever made it.

I didn’t say smarter.
I would say hunting with a versatile breed more of a team effort. Poorly trained dogs will hunt for themselves. My Draht has tracked a crippled pheasant for over a 1/4mi, and retrieved it to my hand. Without a single command. He didn’t do that just for himself.

I’m not sure what the grand is. I’m guessing a retriever test? I’m certain it doesn’t have anything to do with my dog pointing grouse, or tracking deer. I’d be surprised to see a lab pass a German VGP test . Especially the pointing part

 

[Danny Hoey]

Have you considered a setter? We love ours. They’re known for their grouse hunting prowess. We have a Gordon and English and love them both.


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If he thinks a Vizsla is ornery, a Gordon isn't for him lol.

 

[WRO]

But i dont think you can say smarter. They are more in it for them selves which i have seen. But if they were smarter they should be able to do what labs do but there hasn't been one that has passed the grand yet. Last year a draht made it to the third series and that's the farthest a versatile has ever made it.

I don't think there has ever been a pointing lab that has placed in all age FT either.

I don't get the whole German Swiss army knife approach to dogs. Get a dog that excels at what its bred for rather than one that does everything mediocre.

 

[WRO]

If he thinks a Vizsla is ornery, a Gordon isn't for him lol.

A GWP would be by last choice based on those feelings .

I've owned setter and GWP's, the setter are way way easier than a GWP.

 

[Donjuan]

What's your go to upland game dog that is also a good family dog with little kids. Does not have oily/ shed like a lab.

I have a French Brittany who is an excellent family dog and very relaxed at home. She hunts very hard in the field

 

[KurtR]

I don't think there has ever been a pointing lab that has placed in all age FT either.

I don't get the whole German Swiss army knife approach to dogs. Get a dog that excels at what its bred for rather than one that does everything mediocre.

As there should not be. Im not a pointing lab fan if i want a pointer im getting a pointer. Your last sentence is spot on.

 

[KurtR]

I didn’t say smarter.
I would say hunting with a versatile breed more of a team effort. Poorly trained dogs will hunt for themselves. My Draht has tracked a crippled pheasant for over a 1/4mi, and retrieved it to my hand. Without a single command. He didn’t do that just for himself.

I’m not sure what the grand is. I’m guessing a retriever test? I’m certain it doesn’t have anything to do with my dog pointing grouse, or tracking deer. I’d be surprised to see a lab pass a German VGP test . Especially the pointing part

That was mentioned before. Guiding and seeing 3000 pheasants a year shot tracking a pheasant is pretty common to most guide dogs regardless of breed. Team effort is being able to run through a bunch of dead birds to pick that cripple up that sailed 300 yards out in the field and is running away. Labs/retrievers are not supposed to go and track deer they are to retrieve and when people say the versatile can do it as good is where the grand comes into play they both get to play the game to see who retrieves better.

 

[JD Jones]

Phez… prob a lab

Add in grouse and Setters are your dog! At least they are for me!

 

[Buzby]

I don't get the whole German Swiss army knife approach to dogs. Get a dog that excels at what its bred for rather than one that does everything mediocre.

They’re not for everyone, that’s for sure! If you’re a waterfowl hunter 90% of time, probably not the right dog, get a lab or chessie. Hunt grouse all the time? You probably want a setter. Want to blood track, there’s dog specifically for that too. I do all of the above, and I don’t want 4 dogs. My dog is not the best at any of those, but he’s far, FAR better than mediocre at all of them.

 

[Danny Hoey]

A GWP would be by last choice based on those feelings .

I've owned setter and GWP's, the setter are way way easier than a GWP.

I haven't owned an english but my gordon......is a special dog lol. I feel like our next might be a little easier after going through the first. But ornery would be one of the first words I would use to describe Griffey.

I'm split on the next dog, either another Gordon or trying to find a good field Irish.

 

[johnnycake]

But i dont think you can say smarter. They are more in it for them selves which i have seen. But if they were smarter they should be able to do what labs do but there hasnt been one that has passed the grand yet. Last year a draht made it to the third series and thats the farthest a versatile has ever made it.

You're entitled to that opinion. Mine differs as I stated above. The problem with your stated proof is it fails when reflexively applied. If labs were smarter, then they should be able to learn to do the various tasks that versatile breeds do. While they can't run for prizes at NAVHDA events, you can run one for evaluation only if there's room open in the test. You can also run any dog in a Versatile Hunting Dog Federation test and get a side by side comparison on various skill sets. But while you can likely get a lab to perform well on the retrieve portions of the test, and maybe even the track, everything else is going to overwhelm it and it won't succeed.

The entirety of the old adage seems apt, "A Jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one."

 

[Buzby]

That was mentioned before. Guiding and seeing 3000 pheasants a year shot tracking a pheasant is pretty common to most guide dogs regardless of breed. Team effort is being able to run through a bunch of dead birds to pick that cripple up that sailed 300 yards out in the field and is running away. Labs/retrievers are not supposed to go and track deer they are to retrieve and when people say the versatile can do it as good is where the grand comes into play they both get to play the game to see who retrieves better.

Sounds like a lab is the dog for you! It sure isn’t for what I do, or a lot of other people who hunt lots of species, and don’t guide. Just because a versatile breed isn’t right for you, doesn’t mean they don’t have merit.

I don’t need a dog to win a retriever game. I need a dog to point birds and retrieve birds that I shoot. There’s rarely a pile of dead birds I need my dog to run past, I don’t guide.

I mostly upland hunt with my dog. And personally I much prefer a pointing breed for that. You won’t find many labs excelling at grouse hunting. Trying to keep up with a flusher in a thicket is not fun. I might waterfowl hunt once or twice a year. My dog has not had issues bringing any ducks back.

The vast majority of dog owners won’t train their dog to peek performance no matter what breed it is. I know guys with labs, or any other breed that leave a lot more crippled birds in the field than I do too.

 

[KurtR]

You're entitled to that opinion. Mine differs as I stated above. The problem with your stated proof is it fails when reflexively applied. If labs were smarter, then they should be able to learn to do the various tasks that versatile breeds do. While they can't run for prizes at NAVHDA events, you can run one for evaluation only if there's room open in the test. You can also run any dog in a Versatile Hunting Dog Federation test and get a side by side comparison on various skill sets. But while you can likely get a lab to perform well on the retrieve portions of the test, and maybe even the track, everything else is going to overwhelm it and it won't succeed.

The entirety of the old adage seems apt, "A Jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one."

As it should but if some one put the time in it could be average. Just the same as the versatile dog is over whelmed when it comes to retrieving any thing past a minor stake.

 

[Buzby]

As it should but if some one put the time in it could be average. Just the same as the versatile dog is over whelmed when it comes to retrieving any thing past a minor stake.

Not seeing a breed pass a retriever test has little bearing on them being a good hunting dog. Or a good retriever for that matter. I know a lot of people with fantastic versatile dogs. They would zero interest to enter into a retriever test. You seem to be focused on one very specific bar to which you measure dogs against. I can also insure you Germans take retrieving of shot game more seriously than 99% of American hunters I’ve met.

Also, the OP isn’t looking for a waterfowl dog, or a dog to play retriever games.