Best of Both Worlds- Ballistic RF and Binoculars

[Outwest]

Strap in, I am coming to Rokslide because I think if I debate this to my wife anymore, she’s going to find me a new place to live…

I recently purchased a set of Leica 3200.com’s. Amazing rangefinder, easy programming, excellent glass(minus the far edges where things got soft). The ballistics calc was simple, matched up with my own data and plenty accurate for any type of shooting scenario I would encounter.

I was heartbroken to find they had a definitive clunk in the back hinge when handling. There also seemed to be a loose rattle in the focus wheel. After 2 weeks of no response from Leica, the retailer I bought them from graciously got me a refund and said they would deal with Leica on their end.

Back on the hunt…

I’ve always used a separate simple rf/ bino but after playing with the BT ballistics transfer and not having to refer to a dope chart when setting up a shot, I’m not sure I can go back to the “old way”.

I understand an RF bino won’t be as good as a similar non-rf but I would like to get close.

My primary option right now is the Swaro ta but have read mixed reviews on rf performance. All reviews of glass are excellent. Don’t really care about the TA but If I can get the ballistics of the 3200’s with better glass, I’m in. Can’t find one to try out though.

Another thought is to upgrade binos to nl 10 or 12 and pick up a CRF with ballistics. I like the look of the sig kilos but again, I became quickly spoiled with the integrated rf/bino.

Has anyone lived to tell the tale of this dilemma? Any first hand experience going back to separate units? Any regrets?

The reason I’m leaning to a rf bino is because I spend most time seriously glassing behind big eyes and so I feel like my binos need to pull double duty just to come along, they don’t see as much tripod time as they used to before I went to the twin Kowas.


Thanks for any advice!


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[georgiaboy]

I’ve got the Sig version and love them. I borrowed a pair and sat several evening hunts with them vs my Zeiss Classics. I couldn’t call a winner in clarity or brightness and can see well past legal.

Very convenient having the rf built in and easy to use (and quick). I kept my Leica rf for the bow woods and haven’t been able to bring myself to sell the Zeiss binos yet.

Most of my use is SE whitetail in wooded pastures and clear cuts and most of my glassing is inside 200 but some spots are 500-600. I’ve ranged much further of course. I caught my Sigs on sale but they’re excellent in my opinion. The pairing works well but at my distances I use a reticle for shots inside 300.

I do get some flare off the internal wires with the Sig rf pairing scope when looking toward the sun around sunset. I like the scope but love the binos.

 

[HuntnPack]

Take a look at Leica Geovid Pros.
Add Upgrade AB Ballistics.
Nice Combination.

 

[tdhanses]

I would give Leica another go, what you received isn’t normal for them, give Doug at cameralandny a call. I’ve had my Leica 2200’s since 2017 and still love them. If I was buying new today it would be the new Leica Geovid Pro in 8x32. I’ve never called in Leica for service, always followed their warranty process which is then handled by email, very responsive they have been but to have the retailer take them back no matter the brand is always better.

I won’t go back to separate units.

 

[Forest]

I'm about to pull the trigger myself, need a ballistic rangefinder and dont archery hunt much anymore so seems like the perfect time to make the switch. For some reason the zeiss rf gets left off a lot of these threads, and yet it rarely gets a negative review.

Here's my brief summary from my research:
I'd bet you could get another leica and be perfectly happy. Fantastic rangefinder and good glass.
Zeiss seems to have the best balance of ergonomics, glass and quality rangefinder.
Swaro ta is never a bad investment. Top end glass but the rangefinder has some limitations in extreme distances. Goofy knobs on the bottom of the barrels, but I'm sure a guy would get used to that.

I think zeiss would be my top choice overall. But I did find a great deal on some swaros that make them extremely tempting

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[Outwest]

I’m going to try the swaros, I got a chance to mess with them today and while I didn’t get to play around with the RF much, the glass was spectacular. You really forget you are looking through rf glass. It’s probably edged out by the NL but not by much. Biggest “sweet spot” of any rf I’ve looked through thus far.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned much on reviews is the one touch ranging. Most Rfs take at least 2 presses to get a range. The ta displays the reticle when pressed, when released, it displays the range. Pretty slick.

I could see the rf maybe wasn’t as quick as the Leica,(I’m talking maybe .75 seconds vs .25 seconds) but again, I didn’t have a chance to range more than 300-400 yards.

Hoping to have my hands on a pair in the next week or so and I can update with my thoughts in comparison to the Leica 3200.com

Thanks for the replies!


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[tdhanses]

I’m going to try the swaros, I got a chance to mess with them today and while I didn’t get to play around with the RF much, the glass was spectacular. You really forget you are looking through rf glass. It’s probably edged out by the NL but not by much. Biggest “sweet spot” of any rf I’ve looked through thus far.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned much on reviews is the one touch ranging. Most Rfs take at least 2 presses to get a range. The ta displays the reticle when pressed, when released, it displays the range. Pretty slick.

I could see the rf maybe wasn’t as quick as the Leica,(I’m talking maybe .75 seconds vs .25 seconds) but again, I didn’t have a chance to range more than 300-400 yards.

Hoping to have my hands on a pair in the next week or so and I can update with my thoughts in comparison to the Leica 3200.com

Thanks for the replies!


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I haven’t looked through the TA’s but i thought Leica had better optics in their rf then the previous gen swaro rf bino.

 

[wind gypsy]

Strap in, I am coming to Rokslide because I think if I debate this to my wife anymore, she’s going to find me a new place to live…

I recently purchased a set of Leica 3200.com’s. Amazing rangefinder, easy programming, excellent glass(minus the far edges where things got soft). The ballistics calc was simple, matched up with my own data and plenty accurate for any type of shooting scenario I would encounter.

I was heartbroken to find they had a definitive clunk in the back hinge when handling. There also seemed to be a loose rattle in the focus wheel. After 2 weeks of no response from Leica, the retailer I bought them from graciously got me a refund and said they would deal with Leica on their end.

Back on the hunt…

I’ve always used a separate simple rf/ bino but after playing with the BT ballistics transfer and not having to refer to a dope chart when setting up a shot, I’m not sure I can go back to the “old way”.

I understand an RF bino won’t be as good as a similar non-rf but I would like to get close.

My primary option right now is the Swaro ta but have read mixed reviews on rf performance. All reviews of glass are excellent. Don’t really care about the TA but If I can get the ballistics of the 3200’s with better glass, I’m in. Can’t find one to try out though.

Another thought is to upgrade binos to nl 10 or 12 and pick up a CRF with ballistics. I like the look of the sig kilos but again, I became quickly spoiled with the integrated rf/bino.

Has anyone lived to tell the tale of this dilemma? Any first hand experience going back to separate units? Any regrets?

The reason I’m leaning to a rf bino is because I spend most time seriously glassing behind big eyes and so I feel like my binos need to pull double duty just to come along, they don’t see as much tripod time as they used to before I went to the twin Kowas.


Thanks for any advice!


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After two go rounds with Leica Geovids with range finders that refused to work in temps below the mid 30's i said to hell with it and went back to standard binos and a sig kilo 2400 ABS. Works for me and I absolutely wouldnt go back to a non-ballistic solver ranging solution. If starting from scratch i'd give the latest gen gunwerks rangefinder a hard look over the sig.

The work flow is better with binos for sure if the range finders binos are sufficient for your standard glassing needs. But I need a rangefinder that works first.

 

[Outwest]

I haven’t looked through the TA’s but i thought Leica had better optics in their rf then the previous gen swaro rf bino.

I’d agree, the .coms are no slouch when it comes to optics. My understanding is the new el ranges apparently have swaro vision glass whereas the older gen did not. The ta’s edge out the leica to my eyes. Larger FOV, better edge to edge. Center resolution is pretty similar but the swaros take it with keeping that sharpness to the edge and giving a more apparent overall clarity.

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[jjjones7]

I’ve always carried seperate as I use my binos for glassing a decent amount and never found a RF version that was as good as straight binos. The one thing I wish someone would do is take a standard ballistic RF and make it variable power. Wouldn’t even have to be a big range either. How sweet would a 6-10 ballistic handheld RF be?

 

[Outwest]

After two go rounds with Leica Geovids with range finders that refused to work in temps below the mid 30's i said to hell with it and went back to standard binos and a sig kilo 2400 ABS. Works for me and I absolutely wouldnt go back to a non-ballistic solver ranging solution. If starting from scratch i'd give the latest gen gunwerks rangefinder a hard look over the sig.

The work flow is better with binos for sure if the range finders binos are sufficient for your standard glassing needs. But I need a rangefinder that works first.

I think if I was going to get into shooting a rifle over 1k yards, I would definitely go with a separate, more powerful RF unit. The reality for me is, I have never looked at taking a shot at a critter over 500 yards and I have a bow in my hands as much as a rifle. With that being said, if I can have an RF that ranges a mile instead of 1/2 mile, why not?

I have really grown to like the range, dial, shoot system so the ballistics integration is important. But not unlike a good hunting dog, I think RF Binos still need to be good house dogs (standalone, everyday binos with good glass) while still doing their jobs when asked to (rf and ballistics).

Also, I have seen the ease and functionality of staying behind the glass and feeding ranges to a shooter pay big dividends. Often times IME, shots are taken in that 2 second gap between giving a range and getting back into your optics to watch impact.

 

[ChrisAU]

I played with my new Sig 3000's for the first time this weekend...it felt like cheating. I had uploaded my ballistic info for my competition 22LR rifle and man, ranging and getting a firing solution instantaneously and dialing it was super easy. Will be super nice for NRL Hunter/NRL22x where you have to find the target before engaging it. Find it with binos, range it when you find it, bino gives firing solution, dial scope, shoot. Easy peasy.

 

[tdhanses]

I played with my new Sig 3000's for the first time this weekend...it felt like cheating. I had uploaded my ballistic info for my competition 22LR rifle and man, ranging and getting a firing solution instantaneously and dialing it was super easy. Will be super nice for NRL Hunter/NRL22x where you have to find the target before engaging it. Find it with binos, range it when you find it, bino gives firing solution, dial scope, shoot. Easy peasy.

I will say you still need to test it to make sure your ballistics are actually what you think, might need to make some slight adjustments but once dialed it is super easy.

 

[ChrisAU]

I will say you still need to test it to make sure your ballistics are actually what you think, might need to make some slight adjustments but once dialed it is super easy.

That is correct, but I also find AB software to be much better than some of the stuff I've used in the past. The Zeiss calculator doesn't understand rimfire very well apparently, but the AB and Strelok have been dead on given a good input on MV.

 

[BjornF16]

After running binoculars and separate LRF for a while, this year I've gone to Vortex Fury HD AB.

So far, after truing the mv the ballistics have looked accurate out to 950 yards for my 6.5 CM for a variety of different bullets. All this has been in Texas, so hopefully will continue to be good when go to MT this September

 

[Shraggs]

Recent convert to bino rf in one unit, for rifle only. Someone mentioned cheating, agreed. No matter how you look at it it saves weight, but more importantly for me if time is of the essence it is much faster - between using a bino, separate rf then an app or dope card. Still need a separate wind call. I think there is an investment one should plan on making sure it’s set up to match your reference.

I use the ZEISS in 8x. Do like them a lot. Leave it to me but discovered a bug. Very circumstantial and most may never experience. It took some Time…. But I got an email it’s fixed. Haven’t fully verified yet.

For western hunting this is my future. No question at all.

No way for archery, bow in one hand so hand held for me there.

Deer gun hunting in the Midwest - if on a field and ground blind no problem. In a tree stand after three kills last year it’s a toss up vs a small one hand rf. Found it a challenge to use bino while managing a rifle quietly.

 

[Mhopper5]

After two go rounds with Leica Geovids with range finders that refused to work in temps below the mid 30's i said to hell with it and went back to standard binos and a sig kilo 2400 ABS. Works for me and I absolutely wouldnt go back to a non-ballistic solver ranging solution. If starting from scratch i'd give the latest gen gunwerks rangefinder a hard look over the sig.

The work flow is better with binos for sure if the range finders binos are sufficient for your standard glassing needs. But I need a rangefinder that works first.

Could it be the battery that’s causing this in low temperatures? I always keep my jacket zipped up over my bino harness and pull them out for use and put them back. Im trying to keep the battery from freezing. I’ve had zero problems on many subzero hunts. My theory is the battery is the weak point

 

[wind gypsy]

Could it be the battery that’s causing this in low temperatures? I always keep my jacket zipped up over my bino harness and pull them out for use and put them back. Im trying to keep the battery from freezing. I’ve had zero problems on many subzero hunts. My theory is the battery is the weak point

I always used fresh lithium batteries and it rode in a bino harness right next to where my standalone rangefinder now sits.

Regardless of where it is, a rangefinder should work when it is 35 degrees outside. The last straw was a range trip where they didn't work when it was hovering around 40 degrees.

 

[Mhopper5]

I always used fresh lithium batteries and it rode in a bino harness right next to where my standalone rangefinder now sits.

Regardless of where it is, a rangefinder should work when it is 35 degrees outside. The last straw was a range trip where they didn't work when it was hovering around 40 degrees.

Agreed and bummer. I would be upset if I had that experience.

 

[Outwest]

Just received a pair of EL Range TA’s. First impressions are better than they were in the store which is saying something.

Got a chance to take them this afternoon and do some shooting. Plugged in my rifle data (factory ammo) transferred the data to the optic and went rock hunting.

I was getting perfect elevation impacts right off the bat (Wind was a bugger today). One touch, press button, find target, release button, it spits out a range and MOA correction simultaneously.

Since I’ve recently had my hands on the leicas and now the Swarovski, I’d thought I’d share some of my thoughts comparing the two. I admit, this may be a bit biased as the Leicas are no longer in my hands.

1. Optics: Although I think it’s a little unfair comparing optical quality while not having both side by side, my eyes preferred the Swarovski. Larger “sweet spot” with better edge to edge clarity. I also feel it’s a wider apparent FOV ( I believe it’s a larger actual FOV as well).

2. Build and features: Both were well above par, but I’d give the edge to Swarovski, again just my personal preference. They feel more solid and substantial to me. I also much prefer the locking diopters on the Swarovski. I also really love the one- touch ranging I mentioned above. Button placement on both is excellent, I really like that the mode button on the swaro is far removed from the range button instead of side by side.

3. Rangefinder/App Use: This is tough, both rfs are really good for the average Joe’s use. Both apps are easy to use and to transfer data. If I had to give an edge, while I prefer the Leica app for the more technical data it gives, the swaro is easier to operate via the binocular and get into Bluetooth mode. Also, scrolling the menus in optic is more intuitive and faster.

3a. The swaro does not give decimal yardage. Leica did out to 100yds I think. Doesn’t matter to me but it might to you. I believe the swaro rounds because sometimes, on a shallow angle short yardage, the corrected will be 1 yard higher than the line of sight.

3b. The Leica wins for furthest distance, hands down. I was hard pressed to get a reading over 1600 yds handholding the swaros. Leicas would spit out 1700+ without blinking. For practical shooting distances for most of us (sub 1k yds), there is no difference in accuracy.

3c. Ballistics data was identical for my shooting. Both matched my printed sheets. However, you had to wait for the leicas to display the correction value, swaro displays LOS range and correction simultaneously. Significantly faster.

Overall, I’m happy to have went with the Swarovski and believe they will serve me well for seasons to come.


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