Best Accuracy Upgrade for a Tikka

[Harvey_NW]

I've got a couple Tikka's and not one of them shot factory Hornady worth a shit in their factory barrel. Sounds like you understand the fundamentals, first thing I'd do is try something else.

 

[wind gypsy]

My point wasn’t that he should feel comfortable out to 1,000. My point was that his rifle is sufficient for hunting.

He said he’s shooting <1.5 MOA — so I extrapolated a worse MOA out to a very far distance to make that point.

Edit: typo

Just had to throw qualifiers out there because lots of people think that way without adequately accounting for additional impacts at further ranges.

 

[atmat]

Just had to throw qualifiers out there because lots of people think that way without adequately accounting for additional impacts at further ranges.

Totally, that make sense.

 

[atmat]

On average, factory "match" ammo should be grouping about 1/2 to 5/8 MOA for 5-shot groups, about 3/4 to 7/8 moa for 10-shot groups, and about 1-moa for 20 shot groups.

Asking for genuine knowledge; can you explain this statement? If a gun shoots 1MOA 20-shot groups, then theoretically it’s worst case scenario is 1MOA.

I can see how lower round groups might and likely will shoot smaller spread due to random variance, but they could also print the same worst case 1MOA, right? So shouldn’t the larger round count be the defining feature, not the smaller ones?

 

[Harvey_NW]

On average, factory "match" ammo should be grouping about 1/2 to 5/8 MOA for 5-shot groups, about 3/4 to 7/8 moa for 10-shot groups, and about 1-moa for 20 shot groups.

In very well built custom rifles, maybe. In most factory rifles, absolutely not.

Asking for genuine knowledge; can you explain this statement? If a gun shoots 1MOA 20-shot groups, then theoretically it’s worst case scenario is 1MOA.

No. There's still variability in 20 shot groups. Out of an accuracy fixture it takes somewhere around 50 shots to get little to no variability from group to group.

I can see how lower round groups might and likely will shoot smaller spread due to random variance, but they could also print the same worst case 1MOA, right? So shouldn’t the larger round count be the defining feature, not the smaller ones?

Yes, the only way to know the actual precision capability of the system is to shoot a large enough sample size. His equations don't match the average shooter or rifles numbers, it's been brought up in multiple posts. He's an excellent shooter with excellent equipment, and never misses an opportunity to interject his superior results as though it should apply across the broad spectrum of shooters, but it doesn't.

 

[wind gypsy]

The point is that I am an average shooter, I use the same equipment available to everyone, and I exclusively shoot factory ammo. I'm not unique, I'm doing nothing special, and I represent the floor of possibility - not the ceiling.

Strongly disagree. You might be average amongst a select group of well educated and practiced precision rifleman but amongst everyone who hunts with a rifle, you and your equipment are not remotely close to average.

 

[Formidilosus]

Group sizes typically follow a normal distribution

Yes, but shooting one or two 3-5 shot groups does not give you an average. Which is what nearly everyone does.

(unless you have a shooter and/or gear issue) and group sizes should always be defined by round count and distance (at a minimum). If you shoot enough and track your data, you will see that group size will grow with higher round counts at a predictable scale

The “average” group size will grow with scale, not the “individual” group you are shooting right now necessarily, or even likely. Groups in general do not flow in linear fashion with each round. It does not in general go that the first two shots are .4” apart, then the third makes it .5”, than the fourth shot makes it .6”, etc, etc. Shot 1 & 2 can easily be the two “worst” shots in a group, just as shot 13 and shot 22 can be. The only way to know that your rifle “averages” anything is to shoot that amount of shots and measure them multiple times.

(again, unless you have a shooter and/or gear issue). The group size of a 20-shot sample is not worst case as worst case is only really known once you've shot out the barrel and tracked every single shot. That is obviously an unreasonable approach, but we can look at known probabilities to make accurate predictions.
This table correlating round count to group size has been shown to be accurate and repeatable in the real world.

View attachment 580537

Ok. Let’s show it for real with @Ryan Avery videoing. I will buy 5 brand new factory rifles (Tikka, Browning, Christianson), factory Hornady Precision Hunter ammo, 5 new Leupold Mark 5’s being that you like them and you can mount all of them and shoot them. Ryan will shoot 1x 5 shot group from each rifle. Then using your provided chart, we measure that group from each rifle, write down what the 30 shot ES should be, and then you shoot each rifle in the same target for 30 rounds. Do you actually believe all five rifles- hell four out of five of the rifles- will be within .25 MOA of actual 30 shot ES versus predicted 30 shot ES?

Since you say it’s “accurate” predictions, this should be no issue.

But you won’t, because you know it’s BS. The only way that chart works is if you have a stack of “groups” measure them all, count all rounds (no “flyers”), etc, then average all of them… and then the average of 6 five shots groups will start to line up with that chart.

Show me three people from this board that have done that, or done what you did in your pictures on this board in the last month? How about the last year?
What is more likely- people plotting every single round of 20 shots fired into seperate targets, putting them into a program and calculating the MR, SD, and location overlaid- or, shooting a couple ten round groups or a single 20 round group?

I think you are reading way too far into my posts. The point is that I am an average shooter, I use the same equipment available to everyone, and I exclusively shoot factory ammo. I'm not unique, I'm doing nothing special, and I represent the floor of possibility - not the ceiling.

This shtick gets tiring. First, the companies that make some of the ammo that you claim to shoot, won’t tell you that the ammo will consistently shoot the size groups you claim from test fixtures- let alone a rifle off a bipod.
Second, hunters by and large aren’t using built/assembled “custom” rifles, they are using Savage, Bergara, Christianson, Tikka, Browning, etc.
Third, the problem is that people take and shoot one decent three of five shot group and say “that” is what the gun shoots. Anything else is “then not doing their part”.
Lastly, almost all of them flinch. How are the calculating anything with a flinch?

 

[Ferrulewax]

For me it’s the stock and it’s not even close. The 300wm in a tikka stock was borderline unshootable. In an AG composites it’s a completely different rifle.

My father in law, not sure if he’s ever fired a center fire rifle, made a first round impact at 600 yards with my upgraded tikka on a 12” steel. Skip the course, get a stock and some extra ammo!

I’m not a well versed long range guy, but have spent a good bit of time shooting from 1-300 yards. I have a t3x with factory stock and always felt it was sufficient, but maybe I don’t know what I’m missing. Can you explain what an upgraded stock does for accuracy/consistency at range?

 

[Harvey_NW]

In the context of this thread, where the OP is looking to increase performance, should we look towards what performance is achievable by those that have sub-par equipment and don't practice? That approach simply makes zero sense to me.

Speaking of what the OP is asking, read the thread title.

This is a big reason why I'd dump that Tikka and go with something else.

Nice answer.

 

[bigmoose]

One of the first things I'd try is the ECtuner. It maybe the cheapest out of your other options. Or get into reloading where you can explore seating depths.

 

[Harvey_NW]

One of the first things I'd try is the ECtuner. It maybe the cheapest out of your other options. Or get into reloading where you can explore seating depths.

Oh boy, here we go

 

[NVVAHunt]

I’ve got a Tikka T3 in 7RM. It is bedded in a B&C Sporter stock, has an APR brake, and an LRHS scope. I have a suppressor on order. The barrel has about 600 rounds through it. I shoot factory ammo - 162gr Hornady Precision Hunters. I rarely shoot better than 1 MOA with a 5 shot group, prone or bench rest off a bipod and rear bag.

I also have a training rifle and I’ve done one long range shooting course already. I’ve increased the frequency and volume of my shooting, but it hasn’t seemed to tighten any of my groups up, although my proficiency is higher. My goal is to increase my/weapons combined accuracy to consistently get 1 MOA or better with a 10 round group. I’d like your thoughts on where to invest my time and money to improve performance.

I’m no expert but here is what I ran into with mine.

I had similar issues with factory ammo for my 300wm but saw a lot of improvement when I started hand loading for my Tikka (before I replaced everything). I did have issues with the barrel getting hot if I didn’t wait long enough between shots shooting for groups, those magnum cartridges in skinny barrels get hot fast and could be causing your groups to open a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheCougar]

I’m no expert but here is what I ran into with mine.

I had similar issues with factory ammo for my 300wm but saw a lot of improvement when I started hand loading for my Tikka (before I replaced everything). I did have issues with the barrel getting hot if I didn’t wait long enough between shots shooting for groups, those magnum cartridges in skinny barrels get hot fast and could be causing your groups to open a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find that as well with mine. I know Form says it’s not a thing, but it sure seems to be consistent for me.

 

[Formidilosus]

I find that as well with mine. I know Form says it’s not a thing, but it sure seems to be consistent for me.

Are you positive it’s not barrel mirage? And what do you find consistent? That the groups get bigger as you fire more rounds?

This group was shot with the suppressor hot enough water was sizzling, the barrel would burn you-




This was shot ten rounds later, and the barrel now was to the point that water sizzled on it-



Barrel mirage from heat will effect groups, but it isn’t the barrel being hot causing issues. It’s the mirage effecting the apparent image. Using mirage shields with properly stress relieved and assembled rifles, I have shot dozens and dozens of thin barreled rifles including large magnums, to where they burned you when you touched them- and with a mirage shield the apparent cone was unchanged from “cold”. There is lots of issues that can make things appear as if they are causing things, it doesn’t mean they are.

 

[TheCougar]

Are you positive it’s not barrel mirage? And what do you find consistent? That the groups get bigger as you fire more rounds?

This group was shot with the suppressor hot enough water was sizzling, the barrel would burn you-

View attachment 580914


This was shot ten rounds later, and the barrel now was to the point that water sizzled on it-
View attachment 580916


Barrel mirage from heat will effect groups, but it isn’t the barrel being hot causing issues. It’s the mirage effecting the apparent image. Using mirage shields with properly stress relieved and assembled rifles, I have shot dozens and dozens of thin barreled rifles including large magnums, to where they burned you when you touched them- and with a mirage shield the apparent cone was unchanged from “cold”. There is lots of issues that can make things appear as if they are causing things, it doesn’t mean they are.

Vertical stringing (up) is what I tend see. Perhaps mirage, perhaps me. No L/R deviation. Just 2-3 shots in a tight cluster, then they start climbing. I’m out of town, but I think I have a few targets that show it.

 

[TheCougar]

Are you positive it’s not barrel mirage? And what do you find consistent? That the groups get bigger as you fire more rounds?

This group was shot with the suppressor hot enough water was sizzling, the barrel would burn you-

View attachment 580914


This was shot ten rounds later, and the barrel now was to the point that water sizzled on it-
View attachment 580916


Barrel mirage from heat will affect groups, but it isn’t the barrel being hot causing issues. It’s the mirage effecting the apparent image. Using mirage shields with properly stress relieved and assembled rifles, I have shot dozens and dozens of thin barreled rifles including large magnums, to where they burned you when you touched them- and with a mirage shield the apparent cone was unchanged from “cold”. There is lots of issues that can make things appear as if they are causing things, it doesn’t mean they are.

I would sell my children to be able to have groups like that.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Vertical stringing (up) is what I tend see. Perhaps mirage, perhaps me. No L/R deviation. Just 2-3 shots in a tight cluster, then they start climbing. I’m out of town, but I think I have a few targets that show it.

IME I can usually shoot 5 before mirage starts to become apparent, and I sure as hell hope I never need to shoot more than 5 in a hunting situation so I don't do it at the range either. I also don't shoot in hot weather, at most in the summer I go early mornings and setup a canopy. If I were in this situation, I would shoot a 10-15 shot group of 3 shot strings, letting the barrel cool in between. That should give you a decent baseline to work off of.

I mentioned in a previous comment I have not had great results with Hornady Match or Precision Hunter in a couple factory Tikkas, and a Rem 700. It might be worthwhile to try a different ammo. Also, in my 7RM a 160 class bullet and around 69gr of H1000 with a magnum primer was pretty much an easy button, you might reach out to a reloader and see if you can get something worked out.

 

[TheCougar]

IME I can usually shoot 5 before mirage starts to become apparent, and I sure as hell hope I never need to shoot more than 5 in a hunting situation so I don't do it at the range either. I also don't shoot in hot weather, at most in the summer I go early mornings and setup a canopy. If I were in this situation, I would shoot a 10-15 shot group of 3 shot strings, letting the barrel cool in between. That should give you a decent baseline to work off of.

I mentioned in a previous comment I have not had great results with Hornady Match or Precision Hunter in a couple factory Tikkas, and a Rem 700. It might be worthwhile to try a different ammo. Also, in my 7RM a 160 class bullet and around 69gr of H1000 with a magnum primer was pretty much an easy button, you might reach out to a reloader and see if you can get something worked out.

I tried 7-8 different factory loads: partitions, accubonds, berger HH, Barnes TTSX and another Barnes, maybe a couple I can’t recall. The ELDX was the best. This was in both the 6.5 and the 7mm. I have found that either my chrono is off or the MV varies widely. I buy in bulk and only shoot the same lot #, btw.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I tried 7-8 different factory loads: partitions, accubonds, berger HH, Barnes TTSX and another Barnes, maybe a couple I can’t recall. The ELDX was the best. This was in both the 6.5 and the 7mm. I have found that either my chrono is off or the MV varies widely. I buy in bulk and only shoot the same lot #, btw.

I think that's just the nature of the beast with factory ammo in some rifles. I know there are members that will post a thousand pages of data disputing that ideology, but here's a small sample of exactly the same issue. This is a factory Tikka in 6.5 PRC, shooting 147 ELD-M. 14 shots total, pic is of a 10 shot group, then made an adjustment and sent 4 more at a different POA to confirm zero. I trust my chrono and have compared it with another to verify.

 

[Formidilosus]

Vertical stringing (up) is what I tend see. Perhaps mirage, perhaps me. No L/R deviation. Just 2-3 shots in a tight cluster, then they start climbing. I’m out of town, but I think I have a few targets that show it.

That’s what mirage will show. There is nothing mechanical that rifle can know it’s round 2 versus 3 versus 4, etc.