Beginner Caliber and Rifle

[ARK_Ginger]

I use TSX or TTSX in the 22-250 . In the 223, they lack the velocity to maximize wound channel and or penetration especially as ranges extend. Every bullet is designed for a optimal impact velocity range. Slower the velocity the lessor the construction has to be. Monolithic do better at higher velocity/lighter weight(for caliber). At same stand point thin jacketed cup and core bullets in .22 may shed at higher RPM or be explosive in impact. 223 wound channel will not be has large as the 223. I switch from the 223 to the 22-250 for a multiple of reasons all based of culling results.


Same principle applies to a bolt action 30-30 vs 308/30-06/300.

I’m don’t disagree that you can kill everything in the world with a 223, im just questioning why limit your shot placement options. Same reason why I think 7-08/260/6.5CM shot placement increase is enough to justify the increase in recoil.

Personally I think the bigger issue is trigger time for beginners then recoil of mild sized calibers like 6.5 CM or 7-08

I agree on the velocity piece. I disagree with being limited on shot placement.

Why limit yourself to poorer performing bullets like monos?

 

[Formidilosus]

There is a substantial difference in monolithic performance in regards to velocity especially in just 223 to 22-250. Sure you can kill everything with a 223. Why limit your shot placement and opportunity? That’s all I’m saying

Why won’t you answer what shot placement difference there is? And why are you using monos in 22 cals…. Or at all?



What were these shot with-




Mule deer




Exit through “shoulder”













How about moose?



Fully separated humerus-


Exit through moose “shoulder”

 

[cuerro viejo]

What different shot placement?

You going to take a 300 yard shot w/223?

If all I shot were monos I’d think 223’s were marginal as well. Shoot 77gr TMK’s and see what a good bullet does.




Once again, what shot placement can you take with a 7mm-08 that won’t work with a 223 and a good bullet on the animal picture posted? (Note: Barnes monos create poor terminal damage).

Even with 77 TMK with right twist, I’d go up In velocity to 22-250, 22CM/22-6mm etc to extend range.

Even with cup and core bullets in the 223 if you didn’t break spine on a qtr two shot and just in the vital cavity, 7/08 is going to penetrate further and create a larger wound channel, therefore increasing opportunity to recover, wether blood trail or traveling distance.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

You going to take a 300 yard shot w/223?

Even with 77 TMK with right twist, I’d go up In velocity to 22-250, 22CM/22-6mm etc to extend range.

Even with cup and core bullets in the 223 if you didn’t break spine on a qtr two shot and just in the vital cavity, 7/08 is going to penetrate further and create a larger wound channel, therefore increasing opportunity to recover, wether blood trail or traveling distance.

Yes I would take the shot at 300 yards with a TMK because it is still well within its velocity range.

Depending on what specific 7/08 bullet you're talking about, the results could actually be the opposite (other than penetration) of what you're purposing compared to the 77gr TMK. With monos in a 7/08 it's a high likelihood that the TMK would perform better.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I agree on the velocity piece. I disagree with being limited on shot placement.

Why limit yourself to poorer performing bullets like monos?

Just had better results with it when culling then compared to cup and core. With 223 cup and core we had a lot larger lose ratio with body shots, when/if we took them vs 22-250 and mono’s. Every other caliber I use I use a cup and core derivative, Gameking, VLD, ELDx, scenar, etc

Especially when shooting bigger pigs etc. I don’t like 22-250 on shots above 100 yards where there is a diminishing ability to disrupt nervous system.

 

[Formidilosus]

You going to take a 300 yard shot w/223?

Haha. Twice that far.

If we’re just talking 300+ yard shots, how about more than a hundred?

How about elk at 427 yards?

Even with 77 TMK with right twist, I’d go up In velocity to 22-250, 22CM/22-6mm etc to extend range.

Even with cup and core bullets in the 223 if you didn’t break spine on a qtr two shot and just in the vital cavity, 7/08 is going to penetrate further and create a larger wound channel, therefore increasing opportunity to recover, wether blood trail or traveling distance.

Please show the massive wound channels you are getting with a 7mm-08? This is where you aught to stop and go read the hundred page thread linked earlier.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Just had better results with it when culling then compared to cup and core. With 223 cup and core we had a lot larger lose ratio with body shots, when/if we took them vs 22-250 and mono’s. Every other caliber I use I use a cup and core derivative, Gameking, VLD, ELDx, scenar, etc

Especially when shooting bigger pigs etc. I don’t like 22-250 on shots above 100 yards where there is a diminishing ability to disrupt nervous system.

I don't doubt your results, but there are several better 223 bullet options to choose from these days.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Yes I would take the shot at 300 yards with a TMK because it is still well within its velocity range.

Depending on what specific 7/08 bullet you're talking about, the results could actually be the opposite (other than penetration) of what you're purposing compared to the 77gr TMK. With monos in a 7/08 it's a high likelihood that the TMK would perform better.

Ok why use the 77gr TMK in a 223 and not step up to 22 caliber with higher powder capacity?

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok why use the 77gr TMK in a 223 and not step up to 22 caliber with higher powder capacity?

Because at 2,800fps and less impact velocity it’s already creating too much damage. Stop being hard headed- look at those pics, go read the thread linked and tell me you want more damage?

 

[260madman]

You going to take a 300 yard shot w/223?

Even with 77 TMK with right twist, I’d go up In velocity to 22-250, 22CM/22-6mm etc to extend range.

Even with cup and core bullets in the 223 if you didn’t break spine on a qtr two shot and just in the vital cavity, 7/08 is going to penetrate further and create a larger wound channel, therefore increasing opportunity to recover, wether blood trail or traveling distance.

I did 320 yards, 18” AR, last year with complete pass through and blood trail. It’s in the big thread and I posted still shots from the crappy video I have of it.

 

[NateTP38]

Ok why use the 77gr TMK in a 223 and not step up to 22 caliber with higher powder capacity?

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

 

[cuerro viejo]

Haha. Twice that far.

If we’re just talking 300+ yard shots, how about more than a hundred?

How about elk at 427 yards?
View attachment 469877






Please show the massive wound channels you are getting with a 7mm-08? This is where you aught to stop and go read the hundred page thread linked earlier.

I don’t take picture of wound channels. Infact my kids are shooting high shoulder shot vast majority of the time.

Probably the last picture I took was actually a 243 with 80gr ttsx because I was surprised on exit size, and that was 8 years ago.

 

[Blackmamba]

I have a Ruger American in 6.5. The one that takes magpul 5 rd mags.

Cheap, a little rough around the edges to hit that price point, but it just shoots lights out with everything I’ve tried.

View attachment 467973

Adding more info, the mags work well. But there is an issue seating the loaded factory 3 round on a closed bolt. It won’t seat till the bolt is open.
The opposite is true with the magpul 5s. Loaded, they seat fine on a closed bolt, but seating them on an open bolt is tricky. You push it in too far and it takes two hands to get it out.
The trigger group looks like it came out of a cap gun. Cheap cast housing.

But it all works.

Dude that’s a sweet lever action. Tell us more about that one!

 

[cuerro viejo]

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

My 223 is wrong twist rate. I’ll try them in my 22-250 when we start culling in Feb.

 

[Stu]

Why won’t you answer what shot placement difference there is? And why are you using monos in 22 cals…. Or at all?



What were these shot with-

View attachment 469854


Mule deer
View attachment 469855

View attachment 469856

Exit through “shoulder”
View attachment 469857


View attachment 469858


View attachment 469859


View attachment 469860



How about moose?
View attachment 469861


Fully separated humerus-
View attachment 469862

Exit through moose “shoulder”
View attachment 469863

Ok, I'll play. I'd guess that caliber is the 9.9 Hallelujah.

 

[Michael54]

Here in pa its not legal to shoot a deer with any caliber smaller than a .24 so basically .243 or 6mm are the smallest allowed by game law. Since forms comment on kids and braked rifles i have a youth .243 im gonna borrow from a friend. I have been looking at .350 legends for my kid as well

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Here in pa its not legal to shoot a deer with any caliber smaller than a .24 so basically .243 or 6mm are the smallest allowed by game law. Since forms comment on kids and braked rifles i have a youth .243 im gonna borrow from a friend. I have been looking at .350 legends for my kid as well

There is no minimum caliber for deer or bear. Look on page 20 of your digest. The requirement is to be manually operated, centerfire, and use an expanding bullet.

Elk, on page 21, have a 26 Cal minimum.

 

[Michael54]

There is no minimum caliber for deer or bear. Look on page 20 of your digest. The requirement is to be manually operated, centerfire, and use an expanding bullet.

Elk, on page 21, have a 26 Cal minimum.

You might wanna check again. The rule was made in 2020 after a bunch of discussion in 2019

 

[Michael54]

I specifically checked because if it was legal my 6yr old would be hunting with my .22-250 with 77gr tmks.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

View attachment 470050

You might wanna check again. The rule was made in 2020 after a bunch of discussion in 2019

Bottom line up front: There is no caliber minimum for deer or bear in PA so long as it is a centerfire cartridge. There is a 26 Cal minimum for elk.

Full story below.

Here are the laws on the books currently. Links to state statutes:

State law

Title 34

www.legis.state.pa.us

Game commission code

58 Pa. Code Subchapter C. Big Game

Information included at this site has been derived directly from the Pennsylvania Code, the Commonwealth's official publication of rules and regulations and from the Pennsylvania Bulletin, the Commonwealth's official gazette for information and rulemaking

www.pacodeandbulletin.gov

2022-2023 digest for deer and bear


2023 digest for elk


The screenshot you linked was from a July 2020 game commission meeting proposing to amend 58 pa code 141.43 to have a minimum caliber for deer. As you can see in the current version of 141.43, this recommendation has not been added to the law.

A search of news articles from that time shows the game commission voted unanimously against the 24 Cal minimum.



Good luck this season, let your kids use whatever centerfire they're proficient with.