Bear Pistol Self Defense

[luke moffat]

^yeah.
I get the whole high V high SD thing but as far as I can tell, the vast majority (all?) of the reasearch presented above deals with expanding bullets in soft media (i.e. Gelatin/humans) from a law enforcement/social work perspective. Sure the hard cast results in gelatin will be predictable but Has anyone simulated a bear-like media to see if the theoretical performance holds up? Those grizz got tough hides. I'm thinking Something along the lines of the FBI denim or car door testing.

If the argument could be made that carrying a 9mm with 15 rnds of hard cast is as much, but not more of, a Hail Mary than 6rnds of 44 mag, id consider a 9mm setup on my next Wyoming trip.

Edit: found this after posting, pretty interesting: 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I find the opposite...I don't find grizzly hides that tough at all. Compared to other animals here in Alaska grizzlies got some pretty thin hides in my experience. Maybe the grizzlies in the lower 48 got tougher hides?

 

[Russp17]

I find the opposite...I don't find grizzly hides that tough at all. Compared to other animals here in Alaska grizzlies got some pretty thin hides in my experience. Maybe the grizzlies in the lower 48 got tougher hides?

I agree the bears I've skinned have the least tough hides out of all animals but sheep in my experience.


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[USPcompact]

I agree the bears I've skinned have the least tough hides out of all animals but sheep in my experience.

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That's interesting. I know black bear hides aren't particularly tough but for some reason I assumed grizzlies were. Because, you know....grizzly.

Thanks.

 

[BGLEMIN]

Cool thread. Never personally hunted in griz country but have encounters with black bear and mtn. lion. My choice is a S&W model 19 .357 with 180 gr solid lead round nose or similar. Pretty sure by the time it's legal to shoot either animal in self-defense, range will be no issue, shear shock of solid lead will be though.

 

[Trogon]

I assumed that since they require such heavy calibers that implied tough hide. Thanks for schooling me.

I agree the bears I've skinned have the least tough hides out of all animals but sheep in my experience.
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Bears skinned. Plural. I'll let the real men do the talking from here!

 

[MattB]

I find the opposite...I don't find grizzly hides that tough at all. Compared to other animals here in Alaska grizzlies got some pretty thin hides in my experience. Maybe the grizzlies in the lower 48 got tougher hides?

Are you trying to make a point based on actual experience on the internet? That's not how it works. ;-)

 

[thinhorn_AK]

A guide on the Alaska peninsula killed one with a 9mm loded with buffalo bore 147g hardcast.

I still prefer my glock 20 or my Redhawks 44mag. I have a 454 casull but it's big and heavy to haul around, it's more of a hunting revolver.

 

[cooperjd]

Tag for some good info to read latet

 

[Beendare]

The guys considering the G20 and G21 should test their intended bear loads as I've heard reports from a couple of those guys with a G20SF that rebarrelled due to the hardcast bullets tumbling...the polygonal barrel didn't stabilize the bullet.

Hardcast is the way to go as a bear stopper in whatever caliber you choose, IMO. I've shot many hogs point blank with hollow points that it left me just scratching my head as to why they didn't go down.

 

[USPcompact]

Hardcast is the way to go as a bear stopper in whatever caliber you choose, IMO. I've shot many hogs point blank with hollow points that it left me just scratching my head as to why they didn't go down.

Anecdotal story time - driving to pick up some tools for work, a sow and two piglets squirted across the road ahead of me. Pigs are just now starting to move into the county here, so at the very least I wanted to try to get a picture of this one since we were barely outside the town limits where she crossed the road.

I pulled over and rolled the passenger window down. Sure enough, the sow was about thirty yards off the road turned broadside and standing in a small clearing beneath a bare oak tree. I snapped a picture with my phone, but because of the distance and shade you could just barely make out that an animal was standing there. I put my phone up and the sow hasn't moved an inch. With such an inviting target, I felt it was a shame to let the opportunity pass by.

The only gun I had other than the .38 Airweight that lives in my pocket was my 9mm M&P loaded with RA9T. I keep a second magazine loaded with RA9B so I ejected the chambered round and reloaded with the bonded ammo.

I hopped out of the truck and told the guy tha works for me to plug his ears. Moved to the passenger side and the sow is still broadside, but has moved back to about 35 yards. She wasn't a huge pig, but still a decent size for here - probably 120-130 pounds.

I don't remember hearing the shot, but I distinctly heard the wet slap of the bullet impact. I hit her just behind her front leg, right below where her shoulder would be. She went down and kicked circles in the leaves before expiring with her feet up in the air. The piglets ran off, unfortunately.

I called the guy that owned the land and told him of his new pig problem, and he sent out a couple of seasonal workers that wanted the pig to eat.

Don't know if the bonded ammo made any difference or not, but right now I'm batting a thousand on pigs with a 9mm.

 

[mtmuley]

I carry a Ruger .357 Magnum stuffed with Buffalo Bore 180 grain Hardcasts. I can shoot this revolver extremely accurately. Can't kill what you can't hit. I also think a six gun is more reliable than a semi for a mountain carry gun. That being said, the odds of killing a charging grizzly with a handgun before it reaches you are pretty slim. Having my sidearm makes me "feel" better though. I hunt the fringes of supposed griz country. Hope to never have an encounter. mtmuley

 

[JigStick]

Saying that these 45acp bullets going supersonic don't open up an adequate wound channel and penetrate is just silly. its performance on ballistic gel is impressive. These Liberty bullets also come in 10mm. I can rattle off accurate shots much faster with my Glocks and HKs than I can with my 357 S & W. And im assuming faster than a 44mag. Yeah the 45acp isn't as heavy as the 44mag, but with supersonic bullets that penetrate and explode, I would rather be able to rattle off 12 shots accurately than 6 shots from a revolver not as well.

Im just thinking out loud here. I live in PA and don't have to deal with Grizzlys. But these new bullets just got me thinking about how they would perform.

 

[Mister Shush]

Saying that these 45acp bullets going supersonic don't open up an adequate wound channel and penetrate is just silly. its performance on ballistic gel is impressive. These Liberty bullets also come in 10mm. I can rattle off accurate shots much faster with my Glocks and HKs than I can with my 357 S & W. And im assuming faster than a 44mag. Yeah the 45acp isn't as heavy as the 44mag, but with supersonic bullets that penetrate and explode, I would rather be able to rattle off 12 shots accurately than 6 shots from a revolver not as well.

Im just thinking out loud here. I live in PA and don't have to deal with Grizzlys. But these new bullets just got me thinking about how they would perform.

As I said earlier, read the texts in my first posts. Physics is not silly and sectional density is not weight. Ballistic data collected through the scientific method is factual, reproducible and predictable and it is correct whether we agree with it or not.



Here's a very simple excersise. Explain why the 147gr 9mm bullet in this photo, despite moving 26% faster than the 230gr .45 ACP bullet, penetrates to about the same depth. These are both Speer Gold Dot HP and if your assertion is correct in saying that a "supersonic" .45 ACP is more effective than a slower moving and heavier bullet, then the data in this photo (from a physics scientist conducting ammunition testing for the FBI) is flawed because the 9mm is lighter and significantly faster. Meaning, it should penetrate farther and "explode" or "mushroom" more, yet neither has happened. Incidentally, over 1,000 rounds of each of these calibers were fired during this testing. The data is very solid, peer reviewed and was a watershed in ammunition performance testing.

 

[USPcompact]

You left out the gel test with the 10mm:



(Before anyone gets wound up about it, that's a joke.)

 

[dotman]

You left out the gel test with a slab of 1/4" steel in it for when you hit bone. Last I checked bears were not just made of jello.

 

[Mister Shush]

You left out the gel test with a slab of 1/4" steel in it for when you hit bone. Last I checked bears were not just made of jello.

Neither are human beings. Nevertheless, you need a consistent and reproducible testing medium to evaluate terminal ballistics. As long as you are testing and comparing projectiles across the same reproducible conditions, your results are accurate. That's the basis of science and why we have the bullet technology we have today.

Please read the FBI's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness paper that I linked earlier in this thread. I test ammunition for a living and I'm happy to help you understand how it wounds.

Edit: A quarter inch thick piece of even the weakest steel available has over 5 times the ultimate tensile strength of cortical bone and is much more dense. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

If you'd rather keep your G21, install a heavier recoil spring & grab a box of Underwood 200gn .45 Super

It takes it to 10mm power levels (slightly over actually, depending on ammo choices) at minimal cost.

I wouldn't recommend shooting hundreds of them, but a box to get used to it + a loaded mag won't harm it in the least.

This was my first thought too.

Re-spring your G21 and grab a couple of boxes of 45 Super.

Shoot a box to ensure functioning, the load the rest up and go.

 

[JigStick]

As I said earlier, read the texts in my first posts. Physics is not silly and sectional density is not weight. Ballistic data collected through the scientific method is factual, reproducible and predictable and it is correct whether we agree with it or not.



Here's a very simple excersise. Explain why the 147gr 9mm bullet in this photo, despite moving 26% faster than the 230gr .45 ACP bullet, penetrates to about the same depth. These are both Speer Gold Dot HP and if your assertion is correct in saying that a "supersonic" .45 ACP is more effective than a slower moving and heavier bullet, then the data in this photo (from a physics scientist conducting ammunition testing for the FBI) is flawed because the 9mm is lighter and significantly faster. Meaning, it should penetrate farther and "explode" or "mushroom" more, yet neither has happened. Incidentally, over 1,000 rounds of each of these calibers were fired during this testing. The data is very solid, peer reviewed and was a watershed in ammunition performance testing.

View attachment 48623

This chart is not a fair comparison. The 9mm rounds in this comparison aren't going as fast as the liberty Civil Defense. Surely the 500fps increase in speed is going to cause a larger wound channel that the 9mm round shown here.

I would like to see a comparison of the Liberty Civil defense 45ACP round compared to the bullets that seem to be the standard for anti bear defense. It may not perform as well, but I have a feeling its going to be much closer than most people think. And if it is....it raises some questions.

 

[Formidilosus]

This chart is not a fair comparison. The 9mm rounds in this comparison aren't going as fast as the liberty Civil Defense. Surely the 500fps increase in speed is going to cause a larger wound channel that the 9mm round shown here.

I would like to see a comparison of the Liberty Civil defense 45ACP round compared to the bullets that seem to be the standard for anti bear defense. It may not perform as well, but I have a feeling its going to be much closer than most people think. And if it is....it raises some questions.

No it doesn't. Brother you have this idea that there is some kind of magic with ANY pistol rounds, and there isn't.

You are not listening nor researching what a couple of people have told you here. There is NO guessing with terminal ballistics anymore. There is a stupid amount of misinformation and myths regarding terminal ballistics, "power", "energy", and "killing" which is nearly insane as terminal ballistics is a KNOWN subject now and the information is readily available.

This is what determines performance in tissue-

1) Placement

then

2) Penetration Depth (depth of max penetration)
3) Permanent Crush cavity (the size of the total pulped and destroyed tissue)
4) Temporary stretch cavity (the wound caused by the tissue stretching outward from the path of the bullet)



Most tissue in the body is extremely elastic and will expand outward from the passage of a bullet and return like a stretched rubber band. If velocity is high enough the tissue will tear causing permanent damage from the TC.

Pistols rounds- ALL conventional pistol rounds- DO NOT produce enough velocity to get reliable or measurable effects from the temp cavity- not even the stupid light shallow penetrators like the Civil Defense. Therefore penetration depth and permanent crush cavity is what pistols offer. Light loads such as the Civil Defense lack consistently deep enough penetration to be be considered for serious use against a 200lb human, let alone a 600lb bear or bear skull.

 

[Ghost]

Cant believe with the subject matter no one has brought up Phil. American Hunter | Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

Hey MtMuley, you know anyone who has run into a grizzly in the area you hunt?