Barrel Cleaning…data

[prm]

Appreciate the response and will get started on them taking notes on a boring airplane ride tomorrow.

Yeah I clicked on the YouTube video link last night for “part 3”. My family was sleeping and air pods were lost somewhere so couldn’t listen, I did read the top few comments and basically every comment was “please share the data” “please share the spreadsheet” “please make this data available on your site”.

So it made me feel less like an ass that those were the top comments I saw.

My intent here wasn’t to “attack” your thread. I’m a data and results driven type of person. In the results I’ve seen being a 20+ year cleaner and now a 3 year non-cleaner, to the tune of dozens of guns from .223 to .300 win mag and everything in between, using both hand loads and factory ammo, and with most guns being on their 2nd and some of them their 3rd or 4th barrels… I have not seen any sort of “early failures” “issues with carbon build up” or “loss of accuracy or barrel life” compared to the same guns and chamberings that used to regularly clean.

If somebody has some empirical data with larger sample sizes being measured, and have come to a different conclusion, I genuinely want to see what they’ve seen so I can learn and make an informed decision.

No worries. Part of the issue is there are varying levels of data involved. Many comments on YT want to see the entire spreadsheet he was showing. Which is fine. They showed a number of examples, but certainly not all 105 cartridges. Others want a singular answer, which they clearly articulate does not exist. Then there is the large data set that feeds the model (thousands of barrels and thousands of rounds per barrel), then the assumptions and calculations that ultimately drive his gonkulator. They do their best to say what this iteration of the model is, and more importantly what is NOT.
I appreciate the effort to build this model with their test data in an attempt to support or refute fudd-lore using their extensive lab derived data base.
I would enjoy seeing excursions using different assumptions and trying to break out some variables to see their impact on the ‘estimate range’.

 

[bowrunner81]

An 18” 6 CM barrel I had last year had never been cleaned or fired without a suppressor. At around 500 rounds I had groups open up vertically and velocity rise from around 2940 to 3000 fps, as well as a couple blown primers. (112 Match Burners, H4350)

I cleaned the barrel and had velocity drop back down to normal with the same recipe of hand loads.

Edit: After this, I dropped my powder charge down by 1 gr. It was hot before and I “feel” that by loading that way, any bit of carbon ring that formed would put an already hot round too close to the edge.

As I shoot 100% suppressed with overbore cartridges (6 & soon to be 22 CM), I plan on continuing to not clean, however keeping an eye on any carbon ring signs and watching my Garmin chrono during practice sessions as the round count goes up.

Probability of something catastrophic happening from not cleaning is extremely low, but it’s on you (Myself included) to ensure your own safety, regardless of whatever anyone else says.

This is what I wanted to hear. I had something similar this past week. I was averaging about 2830fps with a 7prc load and H4831sc and its slowly jumped up all the way to 2930 with pressure signs on the cases. The only think I could think of was to clean it and I have yet to shoot it since I cleaned it.

What are other signs of a carbon ring?

 

[Flyjunky]

So, let me see if I have this straight-

The people saying you don’t need to clean barrels don’t have any hard data to back up their claims. Yet those same people are complaining that Hornady, and individuals, don’t have any hard data either.

It seems to me that either cleaning/not cleaning might be the right answer for YOU but doesn’t mean every barrel will shoot fine without cleaning.

 

[Flyjunky]

This is what I wanted to hear. I had something similar this past week. I was averaging about 2830fps with a 7prc load and H4831sc and its slowly jumped up all the way to 2930 with pressure signs on the cases. The only think I could think of was to clean it and I have yet to shoot it since I cleaned it.

What are other signs of a carbon ring?

Get a bore scope and check, but yes, that’s a common sign of a carbon ring.

 

[HuntHarder]

Interesting discussion here so far. I have very rarely ever cleaned my rifles, but I also do not shoot near as much as other guys on Rokslide. Last year, my 270wsm, started to develop a hard bolt lift while shooting targets one day. I rarely ever used to shoot with a chrono, mainly because I only had the magneto speed and didn't want the barrel harmonics changed. I decided to do a very thorough cleaning when I got home and the issue went away. Not sure exactly what it was, but it is sounding like a carbon ring. The barrel was insanely copper fouled iirc and took a while to get it all out. I have no "data" only what happened to me.

 

[Formidilosus]

So, let me see if I have this straight-

The people saying you don’t need to clean barrels don’t have any hard data to back up their claims. Yet those same people are complaining that Hornady, and individuals, don’t have any hard data either.

It seems to me that either cleaning/not cleaning might be the right answer for YOU but doesn’t mean every barrel will shoot fine without cleaning.

No, that is not what is being discussed. I and others can and have happily laid out dozens of rifles apiece and their round counts.
I am 24min into the 3rd episode, and there is zero (0) explanation at all about how they arrived at their “figures”- it is literally “trust us.
It’s absurd- “if you have 170 rounds on your 22-250 barrel, you better clean else something bad might happen”. What might happen? What happened bad in your “thousands of barrels”? Why didn’t they provide any actual information? They provided massive actual information about precision- I have seen the raw data from that. But no information except for a magical “formula” for barrel cleaning.


The issue is that the Horandy podcasters are saying “we have a mathematical formula” with no- that is none- information at all about how they came to that formula.

 

[Formidilosus]

For any one that is wondering, this is what they have stated so far at 24min total on the 3rd episode. The first two episodes were 100% useless.



10 minutes in and they have a chart. They did some math figures to come up with a formula, based on some nebulous criteria that has no defined terms that would not explain how they arrived at it- they say that you gotta clean a 223 at 300 rounds, 308’s every 400’ish rounds, and 22-250 every 175 rounds.



20 minutes in- “when you have 200 rounds in your 22-250, it neeeds cleaning”. But do not say why, do not give information on what went into that statement, or why you “need to”. It’s all based on the nebulous math formula that they never explained- “but trust us bro”. Then about cleaning and barrel life for 22 swifts and 22-250’s- “I feel like this is why they got such a moniker of barrel burners”- because they weren’t cleaned“- yet provide no information to back that statement up or why that would even begin to explain anything, nor acknowledge that not cleaning a barrel is by and large not the norm and is not common in the gun industry- cleaning is the norm.



308 win cleaning- name drop PRS shooter for some reason, “you need to clean between every match (300 rounds)” - again, no information as to why, no information to understand how they came up with that, no explanation at all- just “you need to”.


AR10- case head separation, blamed on not cleaning. No explanation, no information- “just it wasn’t cleaned”. To anyone that has real use and experience with large frame gas guns, the whole conversation about this one was disjointed with multiple statements that do not make sense. And “if” the “unit” that they referenced is the one it points to- they do have the knowledge and volume of use to say that cleaning is a waste of time, and “if” it is that place- they subsequently no longer use Hornady ammo in their guns due to problems with it, but instead use Federal- with no issues.

In any case- case head separation in a large frame gas gun with commercial ammo- here’s my shocked face.





24 minutes in- “critical process of cleaning”, yet still haven’t explained or shown any reason to say it’s critical.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I can’t quite grasp why more people cannot think for themselves. Sure, use Forms large dataset and experience to not clean your barrel.. or start at Hornadys if you like.
Just pay F’n attention to what your rifle is telling you. It’s not going to all of a sudden go from perfectly safe to blowing up in your face. If there’s pressure signs, do something about it.

 

[Formidilosus]

I can’t quite grasp why more people cannot think for themselves. Sure, use Forms large dataset and experience to not clean your barrel.. or start at Hornadys if you like.
Just pay F’n attention to what your rifle is telling you. It’s not going to all of a sudden go from perfectly safe to blowing up in your face. If there’s pressure signs, do something about it.

Yes.

And then I would add- find out what’s causing the pressure signs. It is completely possible to safely and reliably shoot barrels out without cleaning, without issues, so you if you can’t with a barrel- there is a reason. Generally they are pretty simple and straightforward.

 

[jmez]

I clean mine after the season. I no longer shoot rifles but my kids do. Is their a problem with cleaning them after use?

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2024 using Tapatalk

 

[bowrunner81]

Yes.

And then I would add- find out what’s causing the pressure signs. It is completely possible to safely and reliably shoot barrels out without cleaning, without issues, so you if you can’t with a barrel- there is a reason. Generally they are pretty simple and straightforward.

So have you never seen a carbon ring or something casing jumps in pressure that has been mentioned above? Or do you just shoot through them and adjust charge weight or change ammo to adjust? Or do you remove the carbon rings but leave the rest of the barrel alone? My first experience with this was last week, but I have yet to confirm it has been resolved.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Is their a problem with cleaning them after use?

My opinion is that it doesn't matter if you don't shoot long range.

For a long range gun I want everything to be/stay as consistent as possible for as long as possible. I get that result by not cleaning barrels.

 

[NoDakhunter]

So have you never seen a carbon ring or something casing jumps in pressure that has been mentioned above? Or do you just shoot through them and adjust charge weight or change ammo to adjust? Or do you remove the carbon rings but leave the rest of the barrel alone? My first experience with this was last week, but I have yet to confirm it has been resolved.

I also want to here what @Formidilosus has to say about carbon rings.

 

[Formidilosus]

So have you never seen a carbon ring or something casing jumps in pressure that has been mentioned above?

Yes, I have seen pressure with some guns- of course. Whether it’s from a “carbon ring” or not I cannot say. I don’t own a bore scope and I don’t care what it looks like- I care how it shoots.

Pressure problems have all been related to getting cute with the barrel, chamber, or loads. Most commonly it has been a brand new barrel, bullets seated into or very close to the lands, “working up to pressure” ( which means way over pressure), then fouling happens and what was right in the edge of “ok”, becomes not ok. The standard answer is to clean- but that isn’t fixing the underlying disease that is causing the symptoms.

Get 100’ish rounds on a barrel without cleaning using mild loads before you start “working up to pressure” with hand loads, stay at or under book max loads, keep the bullet well of the lands and throat, and do not use a “tight chamber”.


Do those things and barrels will go their whole lives with zero issues.

Or do you just shoot through them and adjust charge weight or change ammo to adjust? Or do you remove the carbon rings but leave the rest of the barrel alone? My first experience with this was last week, but I have yet to confirm it has been resolved.

I do not own a cleaning rod. No one that I work or shoot with owns one either. We have take down rods for use in an emergency- broken extractor or stock case (that has never been needed).

 

[wind gypsy]

I clean mine after the season. I no longer shoot rifles but my kids do. Is their a problem with cleaning them after use?

Probably a good practice especially if there was much for moisture on them. A handful of fouling shots and you should be right back to where you were.

 

[HighUintas]

I listened to episode 3 last night/this morning and agree with a few folks in this thread. I also put a stupid long comment on their YouTube page in an attempt to get them to share more info on their data and parameters.

They didn't give anywhere near enough information on their testing parameters, how and why they decided to clean during testing, what their criteria is for determining a barrel is done, how their spreadsheet was built (is it all data or is some of it a model??), they didn't give any root causes for pressure issues they've seen in their anecdotal stories, etc.

They sort of danced around the idea a couple of times that you might be able to get away without cleaning in some scenarios, but never actually stated it.

Regardless of their data or the origin, even if their data showed the risk of not cleaning was extremely low, I do not think that they would be stating it's ok to not clean or even that their findings are inconclusive.

 

[wind gypsy]

I hate to introduce anything factual into a lively discussion, but if anyone has ever wondered why some rifles carbon up and some don’t, it’s at least partially explained by the chamber tolerances. Factory rifles are SAAMI spec and that spec has a tolerance, which is easy to look up on SAAMI.org. I see Hornady has submitted the 6 GT, so that new rifle of yours has a chamber that looks like the 1st drawing. Notice the throat diameter is .2436” - that’s leaving .0003” gap around the bullet. Thin aluminum foil is .001” ish, so it’s 1/3 the thickness of thin foil. However, the tolerance listed down in the fine print is +.002”, so it can be as large as 1-1/3 pieces of foil all around the bullet. Where your gun falls only careful measurement can tell, but a 2 yr old can look at two gaps he’s trying to squeeze through and know one that’s 4x as wide has a lot more wiggle room.

Now look at the test barrel tolerance. The tolerance isn’t +.002”, but only +.0005”. Again, no mathematician, but Toddler-Taper can tell you something with 4x smaller gap is harder to get through. The 5 year olds here at Taper World Headquarters can even verbalize the difference in terms of Lincoln Logs, or Legos, but you get the idea.

If I was a Flat Earther, I mean anti cleaner, I’d point out the Hornady data applies only to tight chambered test barrels or minimum chambered custom barrels and not average hot-dog-down-a-hallway factory barrels.

View attachment 810568View attachment 810567

You bring up some very good points in relation to tolerances acceptable on test barrels and on chambers. Seems there could be a fair bit of variance chamber to chamber on how things behave. A guy can get a chamber that checks out fine per SAAMI spec but shows pressure signs much faster than many others due to being close to min dimensions everywhere.

 

[Jebel]

I didn’t listen to the podcast but came across this barrel life data chart from it. All I have to say is my 7prc barrel is totally f’d for long term usage if this is what happened with factory ammo because my N570 load is absolutely booking lol

View attachment 810351

Can you point us to where you found this? Is there a repository somewhere with downloads for the various Hornady Podcast episodes? Not finding one.

 

[prm]

Can you point us to where you found this? Is there a repository somewhere with downloads for the various Hornady Podcast episodes? Not finding one.

That’s just a simple bar chart of a few of the cartridges shown. Take 2 min to make.

 

[KyleR1985]

Case study?

@Aavila1023 can you share your experience here?

Kimber .308 84m

Hello all, I’m having an issue with my Kimber 84m classic chambered in .308. After I shoot it the case gets stuck in chamber and the bolt will be stuck. I’ve tried all different types of ammo and nothing has changed. I do notice some scuffing on the bottom rim of the casing when finally getting...

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