Bare shaft tuning a recurve

[Kindo]

I feel like your recipe is in the ball park. Is the center cut of your widow the same as the bow you were shooting previously? This would have a big impact on spine requirements.

Yes, both bows are identical in their setup; however, one is just a take down version. The only difference is that my dads, currently has a new string. I should note, I haven’t tested the actual DW on the take down model. I feel that it may be a bit lighter than stated on the limb so perhaps that’s why it shows just a tad stiff. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Kindo]

So, after re-reading some of your responses, I decided to try my google-fu and do some more specific web searches. I found one thread on another forum that resonates what many of you offered me.

Is it poor taste to share that thread link here? Not sure of the rules and all but I found it very helpful.
Thanks again everyone. Hoping to try a few things today and I’ll report back.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Without re-reading the entirety: Have you played with brace height? Are the bowstrings of different types, strand count or diameters?

 

[Kindo]

Without re-reading the entirety: Have you played with brace height? Are the bowstrings of different types, strand count or diameters?

I have played a bit with BH and it is within spec per widows recommendations. All bow strings are from black widow and were purchased by providing the bow serial number to make sure I was getting the proper strings.

 

[Beendare]

As long as you're playing with all possibilities, may I suggest....

Take a couple of nocks and use a thin emery board to work the pinch points until they barely hold the arrow. Use those 'relieved' nocks with different bare shaft combos and see if nock pinch might be having an effect. Think about the amount of force required to snap a nock on or off the string. Whether little or a lot, that same amount of force (to overcome resistance) is required as the arrow leaves the string.

Yeah, good call^ tight noks would give you poor arrow flight with a bareshaft- shows stiff. I mentioned I put a little wax right at nok point when I make up a new string..until it wears in a little.

Since you aren't a rookie...assuming you know all that. I'm betting its the arrow sliding due to only one nok point....

 

[oldgoat]

Good thread so far! Are you canting the bow when you shoot? I've had some occasions where canting while trying to dial in a new arrow can lead to some false conclusions about how the arrow flies! I agree with beendare, 2 nocking points are a good idea, aren't always needed but it sure don't hurt.

 

[Kindo]

Well, I think I've got it dialed in. I tied in that lower nock point and that made a huge difference. I was able to play around with it a bit and found a pretty good sweet spot. By that time, I was getting a little fatigued and decided to wait until I'm fresh again to double check and tie everything in solid.

After some thinking, I guess I'm more of a rookie with the bow setup process than I thought. I think in the last two weeks, I've done more tinkering with my setup than I did in the first 10 years that I shot traditional. I took for granted the old timer at the small archery shop in town who still shot a recurve who, I can only assume, did all this for me and I was none the wiser. I have to say though, it's been nice learning from everyone here as I'm sure it'll pay dividends in the future. Thanks again everyone!

I ended up with a 29.5" Gold Tip Traditional XT with aluminum insert and 175 gr field point. I tried the 200 and that put me a bit weak, so with fletching, I may be able to get away with it. Total weight came in at 575 if I remember correctly with fletching and wrap.

 

[Kindo]

Yeah, good call^ tight noks would give you poor arrow flight with a bareshaft- shows stiff. I mentioned I put a little wax right at nok point when I make up a new string..until it wears in a little.

Since you aren't a rookie...assuming you know all that. I'm betting its the arrow sliding due to only one nok point....

Good point on the string wax. This is a pretty new string as well. A guy is always learning!

 

[Kindo]

Good thread so far! Are you canting the bow when you shoot? I've had some occasions where canting while trying to dial in a new arrow can lead to some false conclusions about how the arrow flies! I agree with beendare, 2 nocking points are a good idea, aren't always needed but it sure don't hurt.

Thanks for chiming in OldGoat. I typically shoot with a slight cant but I've been holding vertical to avoid any potential for false readings between nock position and spine. The two nocking points seem to be the cats pajamas.

Thanks again!

 

[Kindo]

Here is where I ended at 20 yards. Just had a slight bit of nock high travel on its way there but I can’t see where in the flight path it’s happening. I tried this setup at 10, 15 and 20 yards. All pretty similar impacts with this rookie’s form.
After reattaching all my hair I pulled out from this ordeal, I decided to take my son to the local range over my lunch hour quick. He shows a lot more potential than his old man. We never discussed his arrow spines at all as conversations revolved more around what snacks we’d get afterward and if he can try shooting a turkey with his “big boy bow” this spring.

 

[oldgoat]

Here is where I ended at 20 yards. Just had a slight bit of nock high travel on its way there but I can’t see where in the flight path it’s happening. I tried this setup at 10, 15 and 20 yards. All pretty similar impacts with this rookie’s form.
After reattaching all my hair I pulled out from this ordeal, I decided to take my son to the local range over my lunch hour quick. He shows a lot more potential than his old man. We never discussed his arrow spines at all as conversations revolved more around what snacks we’d get afterward and if he can try shooting a turkey with his “big boy bow” this spring.

If you keep seeing occasional porpoising, try changing the pressure on your fingers, I have a really short for my 31"draw longbow that I like to shoot and I have a tendency to put too much pressure on my ring finger which causes a little nock high, doesn't make a hoot of difference on my 66"longbow but on that 60" the string angles are so much more drastic it makes a big difference!

 

[Kindo]

If you keep seeing occasional porpoising, try changing the pressure on your fingers, I have a really short for my 31"draw longbow that I like to shoot and I have a tendency to put too much pressure on my ring finger which causes a little nock high, doesn't make a hoot of difference on my 66"longbow but on that 60" the string angles are so much more drastic it makes a big difference!

This right here! ^^^ I think my form was going to crap on me which was giving me some of the more mild readings. I'm also shooting a glove, but I know I need to look into transitioning to a tab.

 

[Beendare]

Good to see you dialing it in.....Which spine did you end up with..at what weight?

I know tuning gets frustrating for me when my shooting is erratic. I pull away from my face sometimes- plucking...and that's guaranteed to give me a bad reading if I'm not paying attention. Key for me is to know when I made a bad shot and throw that one out.


___

 

[Beendare]

I got a good release tip from Ben Rodgers and Matt Potter at the Trad nationals one year; I angle my fingers slightly down [shooting 3 under] and it gives me just a little cleaner release.

________

 

[Kindo]

I ended up at a 340 spine. The 400s are going to be saved for my PSA which, while being a 58” bow, is much more smooth and stacks less than the 62” PTF. The PTF really spits them out though!

 

[Kindo]

**UPDATE**

Alright, well after thinking I had things dialed in, there were still some inconsistencies. I felt that unless my form was absolutely 100% perfect, I was still getting some erratic arrow flight and perhaps some false spine readings like some of you had mentioned.

I went back and wrote down everyone's advice and decided to start from square one.

1) remeasured brace height and it was still in spec. Check

1.5) (too lazy to change all of the numbers from here down as this was an afterthought worth mentioning.)
Double check draw length 27.5" on the nuts and clicker directly attached to string with with timing cord. Check

2) marked my "new" nock point and my old nock point to use as reference. (There was almost 5/8" in discrepancy here) Check

3) re-tied my lower nock point and left it just loose enough to move around. Check

4) double checked my draw length and weight (58# @28" widow, I'm drawing 27.5" at about 54/55lbs) Check

5) check center shot....hmmmm. Well, I went ahead to double check that and something seemed off. I know I had checked it before but I figured my dad had shot it like that just fine. (perhaps he did but it "worked" for his shooting style?
At some point after he bought the bow, my dad put a almost "velcro" looking shelf/riser pad on this bow. I think it originally came with a much thinner calf-hair setup. So I took a closer look and decided that it needed to go. I ordered up a small one-piece calf hair pad from BW and got it slapped on a few days later.
New, thinner strike pad installed. Check

EDIT: For clarity, this is when I realized that my center shot was off and the thicker riser pad had been giving me false weak spine readings.

6) At this point, I have my bareshaft cut down as far as I want to go and have a similar length fletched shaft and I give it a go.
(Perhaps I should start over again with a full shaft and cut down but I think I can get to where I need with what I've got but I may end up a bit heavy with my arrow weight.)

My finding at this point: my previously perceived weak-spined arrows are now consistently showing stiff (like many of you mentioned but my previous setup was giving false weak-spine readings).

My form may not be stellar, but when I'm not fatigued, I can stack them in there, and realize when I've made my own f-ups. I'm now seeing consistency but also that I do in fact, have a stiff arrow (like many of you previously questioned).

I decided to take out the aluminum insert and add a 50gr brass insert.
BS and fletched are getting closer with the 150s but still not quite there. I try some heavier FPs (175 and 200) and boom, we're there but still getting some slight porpoising.

7) Glued in the heavier inserts and FP combo to correct the spine issue Check

8) I'm getting close and just want this figured out but I decide to take a break for a few hours so I can come back fresh for wrapping this up.

9) This was my favorite point of this whole ordeal as everything was finally coming together. I simply had to do some minor tweaking of my nock point and soon I was slinging 620 gr darts down range with perfect flight when I did my part! All of a sudden this bow/arrow combo has a degree of forgiveness which it never had before and does so with a level of stealth worthy of being taken to the whitetail woods.

When my form/release goes to hell, my points still group but only then do I notice some erratic nock travel with a foam block target.
This is in stark contrast to my constant chasing of nock left and slight nock right.

10) Lastly, I wanted to move to a tab, but old habits die hard. I went ahead and tried a new glove while I was at it. I can't say this helped a ton but my old glove was worn out and about 20+ yrs old. This stick-tite glove is the cat's pajamas and was exactly what I was looking for. YMMV.

While I ended up with a slightly heavier setup than I was anticipating, I'm going to give it a shot and see how it performs at the 3D range. I'm hoping to see what it chronos at this weekend. It appears to shoot anywhere from 150-200 grain field points well with the sweet spot being 175-200s. I still have the 400 spines to try out and I may tackle that as it starts to warm up.

Is it common to have some degree of wiggle room when it comes to broadhead weight? If I stretch past 20 yards, will I start to see some variance and need to settle on a specific weight?

I hope this provides some degree of useful information as a lot of great info/advice was shared by others offering their insight to help out.

Thanks again!

 

[bjfoxhoven]

Man this sounds like the issues I have had recently. Awesome discussion everyone. So much info in this short forum. I only with I had all this knowledge of archery when I started so long ago.

I have a 62” ILF set up I plan to hunt with next year. I can do my part and shoot really well most of the time minus a couple flyers. I never really bare shaft tuned any arrows for the past 15 years of hunting and was shocked at the results I got with my weaker ILF set up and compound arrows. (I got a perfect bare shaft out of my 40lb 66” bow in about 10 minutes, so I know I can do it, or maybe got lucky).

In the past week I could tell amount of cant and changing pressure amount on the three fingers along with bow hand pressure all drastically alter nock travel. I get mostly nock low and left flight. Initially I got full length arrows and was shooting perfect darts with 100gr tips and slightly weak reading with the 125s consistently. but I really wanted the 125 for little better FOC (17-18 vas 13-14)... so I went to the shop and started cutting the arrows down and shooting the 125 grain tips. However, since day one I haven’t had consistent results.

I have 31”350 spine day six arrows. 100 grain insert. I am at 46lb at my 30.5” draw. I originally wanted 125 grain points to tune so I could swap Broadhead a between my compound and recurve. Well I may say heck with the compound and just shoot the recurve lol. Love It!

anyway, I get nock low a lot, I feel pretty confident at my spot 5/8 high... don’t currently have a second nock point under arrow, but will add it after reading this above. I almost always get weak reading too. I shoot off the shelf.

Why is point of impact more important than nock travel with bare shaft tuning? Is it more because it is so hard to get a perfect release with fingers that it is hard to get great travel consistently? That basically negates paper Tuning. I would like a perfectly flying arrow to better penetration when hitting an animal with an arrow going 187ft/second with my set up.

Thoughts?

 

[slvrslngr]

Man this sounds like the issues I have had recently. Awesome discussion everyone. So much info in this short forum. I only with I had all this knowledge of archery when I started so long ago.

I have a 62” ILF set up I plan to hunt with next year. I can do my part and shoot really well most of the time minus a couple flyers. I never really bare shaft tuned any arrows for the past 15 years of hunting and was shocked at the results I got with my weaker ILF set up and compound arrows. (I got a perfect bare shaft out of my 40lb 66” bow in about 10 minutes, so I know I can do it, or maybe got lucky).

In the past week I could tell amount of cant and changing pressure amount on the three fingers along with bow hand pressure all drastically alter nock travel. I get mostly nock low and left flight. Initially I got full length arrows and was shooting perfect darts with 100gr tips and slightly weak reading with the 125s consistently. but I really wanted the 125 for little better FOC (17-18 vas 13-14)... so I went to the shop and started cutting the arrows down and shooting the 125 grain tips. However, since day one I haven’t had consistent results.

I have 31”350 spine day six arrows. 100 grain insert. I am at 46lb at my 30.5” draw. I originally wanted 125 grain points to tune so I could swap Broadhead a between my compound and recurve. Well I may say heck with the compound and just shoot the recurve lol. Love It!

anyway, I get nock low a lot, I feel pretty confident at my spot 5/8 high... don’t currently have a second nock point under arrow, but will add it after reading this above. I almost always get weak reading too. I shoot off the shelf.

Why is point of impact more important than nock travel with bare shaft tuning? Is it more because it is so hard to get a perfect release with fingers that it is hard to get great travel consistently? That basically negates paper Tuning. I would like a perfectly flying arrow to better penetration when hitting an animal with an arrow going 187ft/second with my set up.

Thoughts?

340’s out of a 40 lb bow? Seems like you’re over spined. Try some full length 400’s. Heck, you might need a 500. And yes, grouping is more important than how the bareshaft flies due to inconsistent release. Sure, you can get unfletched arrows to fly perfectly, IF the arrow is tuned perfectly and IF you have a perfect release. Tuning can be frustrating, but keep at it until you get it right.

 

[AndySee]

Also, nock high can also be an underspined arrow and nock low can be overspined, esp. if you're shooting off the shelf.

Why does nock position not matter when bareshafting with tradtional equipment? Trying to get better at this tradtional archery thing because its FUN!

 

[Newtosavage]

Why does nock position not matter when bareshafting with tradtional equipment? Trying to get better at this tradtional archery thing because its FUN!

Nock position does matter. People just forget or don't know that a high or low nock in flight could also be the result of a weak or stiff arrow.