Banning Hunting Tech in Idaho

[IdahoJoe29]

That’s true. But I think most guys would not use them if that was the law. Of course some would, as with anything. In a group setting, I would think the peer pressure would lean hard in the direction of not breaking the law.

Regardless, It seems logical to legislate for the moral/ethical rule, then figure out the enforcement after. We don’t say “fraud/embezzlement is difficult to prove/prosecute, let’s not bother trying to make it a crime”.


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Yea you start taking licenses away and charging for poaching and the large majority of people are not going to do it. Only keeping the honest people honest


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[omicron1792]

That’s true. But I think most guys would not use them if that was the law. Of course some would, as with anything. In a group setting, I would think the peer pressure would lean hard in the direction of not breaking the law.

Regardless, It seems logical to legislate for the moral/ethical rule, then figure out the enforcement after. We don’t say “fraud/embezzlement is difficult to prove/prosecute, let’s not bother trying to make it a crime”.


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There are lots of things that would be crimes if they were easier to enforce. No one wants a “moral” law on the books. Would tie up courts and resources with the ambiguity.

 

[justin davis]

Better ban phones and Onx while we are at it. I miss the days when people didn’t have Onx.

 

[Jake Larsen]

There are lots of things that would be crimes if they were easier to enforce. No one wants a “moral” law on the books. Would tie up courts and resources with the ambiguity.

Every single law on the books is a moral law. We legislate morality. That’s what a law is.


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[omicron1792]

Every single law on the books is a moral law. We legislate morality. That’s what a law is.


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Not exactly.

Many laws are the opposite of morality.

My point was a moral law without feasible enforcement makes little sense.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Not exactly.

Many laws are the opposite of morality.

My point was a moral law without feasible enforcement makes little sense.

They might not reflect YOUR morality, or mine. But they reflect whomever wrote/voted them in collective moral code. Thats kinda the whole point of laws written by elected representatives. You’re voting for a codified moral code. Doesn’t mean it functions perfectly to the intended end, but that’s the idea.

So back to the point of thermals. If most of us collectively believe they aren’t ethical (as seems to be the case) we should make them illegal. BTW they’re illegal in most other states already, so the “hard to enforce” argument as a reason to not attempt to regulate them makes little sense.

How many hunters out of 100 will set out (plan) to break game laws? 2? 5? Everybody else will leave them at home. If thermals are illegal, their use in the field will drop dramatically I’d bet. It’s not gonna be perfect, but it’s a step in the right direction.


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[fattyboy70]

I don’t know maybe I’m missing the point of all this but since we’re all advocating for change how about a sweeping rule for all Idaho public lands non motorized travel from aug15-Dec. There will be no unfair advantage and the ungulates will travel more freely when they’re most vulnerable during those months. We already do it for winter range areas, why not give them as many advantages possible not just a couple. I could make a moral and ethical argument for that rule change. Me and my horses will be very happy, screw everyone else. Guarantee the deer/elk numbers would go up. No more aircraft’s into the frank, could you imagine what it would be like years later. While we’re at it let’s do away with powered scopes and anything to do with “long range” shooting, the podcast guest is part of that group.
The list can go on and on. A thermal and cell camera has never helped me kill deer/elk. Maybe someone should teach me what I’m doing wrong

 

[Jake Larsen]

I don’t know maybe I’m missing the point of all this but since we’re all advocating for change how about a sweeping rule for all Idaho public lands non motorized travel from aug15-Dec. There will be no unfair advantage and the ungulates will travel more freely when they’re most vulnerable during those months. We already do it for winter range areas, why not give them as many advantages possible not just a couple. I could make a moral and ethical argument for that rule change. Me and my horses will be very happy, screw everyone else. Guarantee the deer/elk numbers would go up. No more aircraft’s into the frank, could you imagine what it would be like years later. While we’re at it let’s do away with powered scopes and anything to do with “long range” shooting, the podcast guest is part of that group.
The list can go on and on. A thermal and cell camera has never helped me kill deer/elk. Maybe someone should teach me what I’m doing wrong

As others have stated above, cell cams and thermals are two totally different technologies in terms of how they can affect lethality in the field. When used to their full capability, thermals will be unbelievably effective for ungulate hunting. They’re in a different category than OnX, rangefinders, long range rifles, the rest of it.


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[IdahoJoe29]

As others have stated above, cell cams and thermals are two totally different technologies in terms of how they can affect lethality in the field. When used to their full capability, thermals will be unbelievably effective for ungulate hunting. They’re in a different category than OnX, rangefinders, long range rifles, the rest of it.


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Exactly. If you have used a thermal it’s a night and day difference. I’ve hunted with dudes that have thermals and honestly 90% of the animals we see we wouldn’t be able to find if we weren’t using thermals. And that’s the general consensus with other guys that have used thermals.


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[voltage]

That’s true. But I think most guys would not use them if that was the law. Of course some would, as with anything. In a group setting, I would think the peer pressure would lean hard in the direction of not breaking the law.

Regardless, It seems logical to legislate for the moral/ethical rule, then figure out the enforcement after. We don’t say “fraud/embezzlement is difficult to prove/prosecute, let’s not bother trying to make it a crime”.


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Agreed, it is just a point that it would be very difficult to enforce. For those that follow the rules, it is nice to know that you are not materially disadvantaged due to being a rule follower. Pondering enforcement prior to implementation of a rule is prudent, but not the end all be all.

 

[IDElkmagnet]

Exactly. If you have used a thermal it’s a night and day difference. I’ve hunted with dudes that have thermals and honestly 90% of the animals we see we wouldn’t be able to find if we weren’t using thermals. And that’s the general consensus with other guys that have used thermals.


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I assume you are using them to locate big game. Are you using them during the day or night?
I ask because I have had thermals for years and haven't even considered using them to locate big game. I wouldn't think it wouldn't help much during the day due to the temperature of rocks and trees being close to the body temp of the animals that I'm looking for. I think it would be like a Where's Waldo picture.
Also I spend a lot of nights staring through it looking for coyotes and its not the funniest way to glass.

 

[IdahoJoe29]

I assume you are using them to locate big game. Are you using them during the day or night?
I ask because I have had thermals for years and haven't even considered using them to locate big game. I wouldn't think it wouldn't help much during the day due to the temperature of rocks and trees being close to the body temp of the animals that I'm looking for. I think it would be like a Where's Waldo picture.
Also I spend a lot of nights staring through it looking for coyotes and its not the funniest way to glass.

Depends on the quality of your thermal. I have used the “nice” pulsar thermals that work really well in the morning and evening and then on a hot day logs and rocks will
Look like animals but someone who has a trained eye and has the thermal adjusted right can definitely tell the difference. Then I’ve used the zeiss thermal and that thing is insanely good for telling the difference no matter the time of day. You can tell the difference from a mile away. It’s like once you look through something like that you realize how much of a difference it makes.


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[IDElkmagnet]

Depends on the quality of your thermal. I have used the “nice” pulsar thermals that work really well in the morning and evening and then on a hot day logs and rocks will
Look like animals but someone who has a trained eye and has the thermal adjusted right can definitely tell the difference. Then I’ve used the zeiss thermal and that thing is insanely good for telling the difference no matter the time of day. You can tell the difference from a mile away. It’s like once you look through something like that you realize how much of a difference it makes.


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As someone who has hundreds or maybe thousands of hrs behind thermals of varing quality I feel you are greatly over simplifying. I can see how it could be a cheat code under a certain set of parameters but there will be a lot of conditions where it would be useless.
For example. In the evening / first half of a night after a warm day.
With that said they should be illegal for the purpose of big game hunting or locating during season. They shouldn't be illegal for the use of coyote hunting during big game season simply because big game season in my area goes from aug 15th- January 1st and that effectively outlaws them for my use with no real positive effect.
I agree with a lot of guys when its said they would like to see all technology (phones, GPS, range finders, scopes, compound/crossbows and atvs/utvs illegal for the use of big game hunting.
Only then will we see an impact from laws like these.
Anything short of that is purely performative law making.

 

[IdahoJoe29]

As someone who has hundreds or maybe thousands of hrs behind thermals of varing quality I feel you are greatly over simplifying. I can see how it could be a cheat code under a certain set of parameters but there will be a lot of conditions where it would be useless.
For example. In the evening / first half of a night after a warm day.
With that said they should be illegal for the purpose of big game hunting or locating during season. They shouldn't be illegal for the use of coyote hunting during big game season simply because big game season in my area goes from aug 15th- January 1st and that effectively outlaws them for my use with no real positive effect.
I agree with a lot of guys when its said they would like to see all technology (phones, GPS, range finders, scopes, compound/crossbows and atvs/utvs illegal for the use of big game hunting.
Only then will we see an impact from laws like these.
Anything short of that is purely performative law making.

I don’t think I’m exaggerating at all for the area and situations I’ve used them in. It’s a night and day difference. I can’t say for areas like southern Idaho because I haven’t used them there but I can’t say tell you from experience it will make a difference in north Idaho.


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[IDElkmagnet]

I don’t think I’m exaggerating at all for the area and situations I’ve used them in. It’s a night and day difference. I can’t say for areas like southern Idaho because I haven’t used them there but I can’t say tell you from experience it will make a difference in north Idaho.


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Fair enough. You experience using thermal to locate BG is far more relevant than my night use.
Do you feel it will have more of an impact on game populations this year than the other tech we are using?

 

[IdahoJoe29]

Fair enough. You experience using thermal to locate BG is far more relevant than my night use.
Do you feel it will have more of an impact on game populations this year than the other tech we are using?

As far as what? Long range hunting? Cell cams?

As far as cell cams go I don’t really see that big of an advantage that you gain from using a cell cam. I personally don’t know any guys that have killed an animal because of cell camera use. The podcast perspective was kind of weird because it almost seemed like their argument was that the animal doesn’t have the privacy anymore that they used to? Or that somehow it’s an advantage to know what caliber or animals are on the landscape. To me I don’t really care if I have to hike in and check my sd card and change batteries but I enjoy doing that stuff. Some people don’t enjoy it.
I do agree with a lot of guys that long range hunting has made a huge advantage on success rates and I’m sure in the future it will be addressed as they alluded to on the podcast. But if we don’t start with something like thermals or drones we aren’t going to get to the point and addressing long range hunting. I enjoy long range hunting myself but I also am able to step back and realize that if it’s going to negatively effect my kids and grandkids availability to opportunity to hunt in the future than I will gladly go back to shorter range hunting but that’s just me


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[IDElkmagnet]

As far as what? Long range hunting? Cell cams?

As far as cell cams go I don’t really see that big of an advantage that you gain from using a cell cam. I personally don’t know any guys that have killed an animal because of cell camera use. The podcast perspective was kind of weird because it almost seemed like their argument was that the animal doesn’t have the privacy anymore that they used to? Or that somehow it’s an advantage to know what caliber or animals are on the landscape. To me I don’t really care if I have to hike in and check my sd card and change batteries but I enjoy doing that stuff. Some people don’t enjoy it.
I do agree with a lot of guys that long range hunting has made a huge advantage on success rates and I’m sure in the future it will be addressed as they alluded to on the podcast. But if we don’t start with something like thermals or drones we aren’t going to get to the point and addressing long range hunting. I enjoy long range hunting myself but I also am able to step back and realize that if it’s going to negatively effect my kids and grandkids availability to opportunity to hunt in the future than I will gladly go back to shorter range hunting but that’s just me


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To be real. If we say.
In the next few years removing. (-----) technology from the field will increase big game survival rates.

1 Off highway vehicles,
2 Laser rangefinders/ drop compensation scopes,
3 Compound/crossbows,
4 Phones/radios.
5 Drones
6 Thermals,
7 Cell cams.

I would put them in that order.
We need to point the figer at ourselves not just those guys over there.

This working group isn't actually doing much.

 

[IdahoJoe29]

There are already laws in place that limit our use of those first 4 items. The latter 3 no
I think the working group at people like me are asking for idfg to start limiting the use of the latter 3


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[Q_Sertorius]

Getting rid of the off-road vehicles or strictly enforcing the existing restrictions are the most meaningful things any F&G agency can do. When our local authorities started taking these things seriously in the Jefferson National Forest it created some good, hard-to-reach areas.

I may regret saying this, but public land backcountry hunting should be for people who can walk to where they hunt and then walk back out. If you can’t do that, go elsewhere.

 

[voltage]

What’s the cost of a decent thermal that is actually effective today?