backcountry muzzleloading, new guy questions

[jm1607]

Ok, I just picked up my 1st muzzleloader (a Knight Vision .50). I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but will very soon. I'm stoked! Have a few last minute questions...

1) I found another thread from a while back where most people say they take about 2-3 reloads with them on backpack trips and about 6-7 primers just in case. What do you carry the loads in, will these work (I'm not using pellets, I'm using 209BH):

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...k-Powder-Accessories/prod9999004674/cat100010

Are there better ones?

2) Besides the muzzleloader, primers, powder, projectiles, powder measurer, and a cleaning kit, what else do I need to buy? Do I need another ramrod or will the one that comes with my Knight work fine?

3) Do I need to buy a bullet starter? Are they used on a backpack trip or just when shooting at home? If I need one can u recommend one?

4) I was going to use 275 grain Knight Bloodline Sabots recommended by Sabotloader, how much 209BH should I start with in each load?

5) The Vision uses Knights Full Plastic Jackets. Should I use these or should I use a bare 209 primer?

Sorry, I know that's alot of questions lol! I just don't know anybody locally that muzzleloads unfortunately...

 

[slickhunter]

I carry about 6 loads and 12 primers. I vacuum seal a couple so I know I'll have dry powder

the ramrod on my Knight works fine for loading and cleaning, so thats all I bring

Mine shoots fine without using a bullet starter, try it first to make sure yours shoots good without, but that's one thing I leave behind

I'd start with 90gr and work up in 5gr increments. I'm trying Barnes TMZ 290 sabots, very good reviews and performance

 

[COlineman78]

My opinion: you are there to hunt, bring plenty of loads. Last thing you want to have happen is to think twice about a shot because you don't have many backup loads, or even worse have your trip be over because you're out of reloads.

1/3) I have used those loaders before and had the powder leak out on me, but I use fairly fine powder. I prefer the T/C 4-N-1 Quick Shot as it has an integrated bullet starter. Without a flared barrel, like the T/C quick load (QLA), you will need a starter after you take a shot or 2 unless you plan on cleaning between shots, which I never do when hunting.

2) One thing to consider is a bullet puller in case you screw up and put a bullet down without powder (don't laugh, it happens). Also useful if your powder gets wet; never had this issue with an inline, but have seen some with Hawken types have this issue. With my T/C you can just take the breech out and push it out, but it wasn't so simple with my Knight.

4) Can't help you with the bullets, as sabots are illegal in CO. I use Powerbelt Aerotip 295s

5) I don't exactly know what the plastic jackets are for, but I assume they are to enable quicker capping/decapping, which may be achieved with some sort of tool like the T/C Flex Capper or a more traditional tool.

 

[TheHardWay]

Where you planning on hunting with it? The reason I ask is because different western states have different regulations. As COlineman mentioned, sabots aren't legal here, nor scopes, or pellitized powders. Just make sure, whatever you choose to use will be legal where you plan to hunt.

I use those loaders that you mentioned in the link. I have had them come open in my pocket before, so you just have to be 100% sure you snap the lid completely closed. My BH209 powder did get soaked in the tubes last year when I was caught in a torrential downpour. The powder was the least of my worries though as I was soaked to the core...literally poured water out of my boots!

As for how many extra shots you carry: I carry a bunch! A few years ago I was hunting elk here in CO. I had 8 speed loaders + the shot in the gun. I put 9 (!!!) shots into a bull at 90 yards (everywhere from low in the heart area, to high in the lungs. After the smoke cleared, he was still standing! He eventually went down, but man, I was sweating bullets as I sat there and watched him. Not having more shots was a helpless feeling. I was shooting 395gr powerbelts, and I swore those bullets off for good after that!

With regard to the Full Plastic Jackets...
Last year was my first time using these in my new Knight Ultra Lite. Before I bought this rifle, I used an Austin & Halleck with bare 209 ignition. I'll recommend using the plastic jackets for a couple of reasons. 1) they are a lot easier to handle than a tiny bare primer. I keep a handful in my pocket when I'm hunting, and it is easy to grab one in a hurry in the event that you need a quick follow-up shot. 2) the Full Plastic Jackets act as a seal between primer and the nipple, therefore doing a better job of keeping the elements, should you experience rain. That seal also helps to direct the flame of the primer through the nipple and to the powder, which is especially important when using the BH209 powder. Another positive to the seal the jackets create is that there is little to no blowback.
As mentioned above, just check the regs in the state you will hunt. Some states require and exposed primer/ignition system.

 

[jm1607]

Awesome guys, I think you all took care of everything!!

Good call on the vacuum sealing, I wouldn't have thought of that!

Ok, you guys definitely take more loads than I was planning on. But, I think you're right. I'll make sure to buy some extra loaders.

As far as where I'm hunting, I have no plans yet. Ya, I know states have different regs and for the most part I know which ones are tougher and which ones are more lax. Right now I plan on doing a little hunting here in Texas during rifle season which has no restrictions so I'm just setting it up with a scope, sabots, bh209 and 209's. That should be a good introduction for me.

Have one more quick question I thought of after I posted this... are the plastic jackets reusable?

 

[sabotloader]

Ok, I just picked up my 1st muzzleloader (a Knight Vision .50). I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but will very soon. I'm stoked! Have a few last minute questions...

For the money I think the Vision is a really good ML - it is very solid and well built. I have tested a couple of them at different times but both of them came with the bare primer option.

The only real problem I had with them is the mounting of the scope... because of the receiver shape on the Vision the scope sits very far forward and with the 14.5" LOP it makes it difficult to get the correct eye relief on a regular scope. If you get a scope with a long eye relief then the problem disappears. The other thing I have been told but have seen or tried a new Vision - but I think Knight has moved the LOP to 13.5" on the new rifles which will solve the problem.

1) I found another thread from a while back where most people say they take about 2-3 reloads with them on backpack trips and about 6-7 primers just in case. What do you carry the loads in, will these work (I'm not using pellets, I'm using 209BH):

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...k-Powder-Accessories/prod9999004674/cat100010

Are there better ones?

I really do prefer the TC - 4 in 1 loader:

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/accessories-en/loading-tools-quickshot/

Also you will want the #7106 50 cal mag 4 in 1 loader - they should be black the Red ones do not hold as much powder. It is tough to get a 120 grains volume in the red tubes.

I carry four of these with me on a hunt.

But the next question is how long will you be away from your normal supplies. If you are back packing for an extended time then I certainly would carry extra munitions stored in separate containers that you could reload the 4 in 1's with.

2) Besides the muzzleloader, primers, powder, projectiles, powder measurer, and a cleaning kit, what else do I need to buy? Do I need another ramrod or will the one that comes with my Knight work fine?

I would suggest you bring a breech plug tool just in case. The knight rod should serve all your needs.

3) Do I need to buy a bullet starter? Are they used on a backpack trip or just when shooting at home? If I need one can u recommend one?

A bullet starter might not be needed you will not know until you load and shoot a few shots. But generally the gun rod and loading tool attachment should suffice to push the bullet sabot down. I would suggest a palm 'saver device' for the other end of the ram rod...

Something like this one above. You see this tool allows storage of spare 209's in a water tight fit.

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/flex-priming-palm-saver-cat-no-9611.html

Or even one of these devices...

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/accessories-en/loading-tools-quickshot/page-4/

Either of these tools will help the loading effort.

4) I was going to use 275 grain Knight Bloodline Sabots recommended by Sabotloader, how much 209BH should I start with in each load?

I shoot 120 grains by volume for actual hunting but starting out why not start at 100 grains by volume and work up to 110 then 120 if you are comfortable with it.

5) The Vision uses Knights Full Plastic Jackets. Should I use these or should I use a bare 209 primer?

Either will work - but personally I would use the bare primer BP + it will be a little bit cleaner.

Sorry, I know that's alot of questions lol! I just don't know anybody locally that muzzleloads unfortunately...

I hope you are able to get a lot of shooting in this summer in preparation for your trip. And I can help with anything else just let me know...

 

[TheHardWay]

Have one more quick question I thought of after I posted this... are the plastic jackets reusable?

Yes they are. You just have to use a punch or something to push the spent primer off. You can get a 100 pack for fairly cheap. If you lose one here and there, its no big deal.

 

[COlineman78]

As for how many extra shots you carry: I carry a bunch! A few years ago I was hunting elk here in CO. I had 8 speed loaders + the shot in the gun. I put 9 (!!!) shots into a bull at 90 yards (everywhere from low in the heart area, to high in the lungs. After the smoke cleared, he was still standing! He eventually went down, but man, I was sweating bullets as I sat there and watched him. Not having more shots was a helpless feeling. I was shooting 395gr powerbelts, and I swore those bullets off for good after that!

I'm going to assume you mean 295gr cause they don't make 395. They apparently make 348 and 405, but I have never seen them (maybe they're new). Guys I hunt with have had similar problems, but I have dropped both of my bulls in a single shot and mine this past year didn't take a step while the other dropped within 50 yards. I have noticed though that they are much more effective if they clip some bone and wreak havoc. Not saying I don't believe you as I have heard plenty of people have had similar issues, just saying that I have never had one. I wonder however if the fact that they load hotter than me makes a difference. I run 100gr of 777 while those who have had problems run 150gr of pyro. Since I won't be shooting past 150yds I don't really see the need to run 150gr and just know my 50, 100 and 150yd hold points for 100gr.

 

[TheHardWay]

I stand corrected, long day yesterday! They were 348 gr bullets with 95 gr 777 powder. Like you, I loaded them a bit slower for the fact that PBs seem to be extremely soft and tend to blow up on impact when pushed at higher speeds. A couple of my shots did hit the back side of the shoulder blade, so maybe those are the ones that eventually did him in.

 

[MuleyFever]

2) One thing to consider is a bullet puller in case you screw up and put a bullet down without powder (don't laugh, it happens).

I have done that twice

 

[jm1607]

I have done that twice

I will never do that!

 

[jm1607]

Also you will want the #7106 50 cal mag 4 in 1 loader - they should be black the Red ones do not hold as much powder. It is tough to get a 120 grains volume in the red tubes.

About how much powder do the non-magnums hold? If I get a magnums do the bullet and powder flop around in it?

 

[COlineman78]

The non mag (red) doesn't hold too much more than 100. As sabotloader said 120 is tough. The bullet is only held in by friction, so it won't move at all unlike other holders. The powder movement obviously depends on how full it is.

 

[jm1607]

The non mag (red) doesn't hold too much more than 100. As sabotloader said 120 is tough. The bullet is only held in by friction, so it won't move at all unlike other holders. The powder movement obviously depends on how full it is.

Ok, awesome. I'll definitely just go for the magnums