Arrow building- next level (Spine Indexing, bareshaft tuning)

[Nate_Beres]

Rebuilding some arrows and want to take my attention to detail another step further.
Everything is the same as I have been running but with some lightly used shafts.
Gt velocity, 26" (can't give up a 1/4", got for free)
83gr insert, 125gr tip. .246 to .166 nock inserts on the back. Out of a hoyt nitrum turbo 72# @28.5"

I've floated my shafts to mark the stiff side of each as a starting point to bareshaft tune.

Is there a rule of thumb of where the stiff side should be facing? I've heard the cock vane is where it should be, but I use 4 fletch set up.
Does it matter where it's facing as long as it's consistent and shooting bullet holes through paper?

Should I bareshaft tune with my arrow wraps on? Should I have my wrap overlap opposite the stiff side?

Should I shoot my bhd's with the bareshaft? I'm using fixed blade (125gr shuttle t) and an estimated 280ish fps, so it's a little higher chance of planing.

I've never personally spine indexed/nock tuned or bareshaft tuned. Really hoping I don't have to move anything and create a bigger issue.

I'm all ears for suggestions on what to do before I put my wrap and vanes on, then getting my bhd's dialed in the least amount of shots as possible.




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[Zac]

Floating is hit or miss. Some guys like to index down, some up, and some towards the riser. Different theories for up and down based on what kind of rest your using. Drop away favors down in order to ride the blade longer. You'll need a jig that allows you to center your 4 fletch. If you don't have a LCA VMP, then I would switch to a TM indexer with the Bitz and run a 3 fletch. For bare shaft tuning you want to try to match weight on the back to your full weight with vanes and wraps. You can use electrical tape for that. I wouldn't mess with finding your spine unless you have a spine tester. Arrows different under load anyway. You can stand at 21 feet and turn the nocks on your bareshaft until your getting perfect holes with the dozen shafts. Then remove the electric tape, put the shaft in your Bitz with the TM indexer and fletch your cock vane right down the middle. If you want a four fletch then I would simply fletch all of them and turn your nocks on the fletched shafts until your getting bullet holes with all of them. Indexing a 4 fletch is a nightmare unless you have the proper equipment.

 

[Hoot]

I used to float/spine test/index all my arrows stiff side up, but have not done it lately as I dont think it actually matters, gold tip has a super tuning series on youtube and I somewhat follow that line of thinking...

here is my process, if I am going to use wraps, I bareshaft with wraps, but I dont go through the extra trouble of adding weight with electrical tape, I shoot very light vanes, usually aae pm 1.6 (3.3gr) so I just dont find it to make that much of a difference...

I turn nocks until bare shaft bullet hole, fletch, and then nock tune by grouping at 40. Sometimes I have to turn nocks, sometimes I dont. I number every arrow and cull arrows that dont group. Once I feel like my set up is tuned, I shoot every arrow with broadheads, and they have to hit the dot at 40 multiple times in order to get marked with an x. I hunt with my numbered arrows that have an x. I can usually get 9-10 arrows out of a dozen to be broadhead worthy. the cull arrows become test/practice arrows...

 

[Billy Goat]

I gave up on spine indexing, I get better results with just bareshafting and nock tuning. I put electrical tape on my bareshaft arrow for tuning the bow, but not for nock tuning. Once I have all the bareshafts flying good I put a sharpie mark on the top of my arrow. Then I fletch my cock vane to that mark. I just rotate my nock to put the mark in the correct position on my bitz, then rotate my nock back to where it needs to be once fletched.

When I'm bareshaft tuning I don't run them through paper. I shoot 5 spot target at 25 yards. I don't give too much thought to the paper, it's a good starting point but I don't think it tells the whole story.

 

[Nate_Beres]

Floating is hit or miss. Some guys like to index down, some up, and some towards the riser. Different theories for up and down based on what kind of rest your using. Drop away favors down in order to ride the blade longer. You'll need a jig that allows you to center your 4 fletch. If you don't have a LCA VMP, then I would switch to a TM indexer with the Bitz and run a 3 fletch. For bare shaft tuning you want to try to match weight on the back to your full weight with vanes and wraps. You can use electrical tape for that. I wouldn't mess with finding your spine unless you have a spine tester. Arrows different under load anyway. You can stand at 21 feet and turn the nocks on your bareshaft until your getting perfect holes with the dozen shafts. Then remove the electric tape, put the shaft in your Bitz with the TM indexer and fletch your cock vane right down the middle. If you want a four fletch then I would simply fletch all of them and turn your nocks on the fletched shafts until your getting bullet holes with all of them. Indexing a 4 fletch is a nightmare unless you have the proper equipment.

So you're saying it doesn't matter where the spine is as long as I'm getting holes?
And if set on 4 fletch (I am, need to with my vanes, by choice) then skip bareshaft entirely? I kind of like the sound of that.

I have a goat tuff Fletcher and have done plenty of 4's before. I only had trouble on micro shafts and when I was playing with 6 fletch (for fun).

Sounds like you have experience. I nock my arrows (In comparison to the string) in an X instead of a t or cross. With a cable to the right and drop away underneath, seems less likely for contact.

If I skip bareshaft and just nock tune, there's really just 2 options of how I fletch them: spine aligned with a vane or not. Does it matter? I want to at least pick one and be consistent. Thanks for the tips!

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[Nate_Beres]

I gave up on spine indexing, I get better results with just bareshafting and nock tuning. I put electrical tape on my bareshaft arrow for tuning the bow, but not for nock tuning. Once I have all the bareshafts flying good I put a sharpie mark on the top of my arrow. Then I fletch my cock vane to that mark. I just rotate my nock to put the mark in the correct position on my bitz, then rotate my nock back to where it needs to be once fletched.

When I'm bareshaft tuning I don't run them through paper. I shoot 5 spot target at 25 yards. I don't give too much thought to the paper, it's a good starting point but I don't think it tells the whole story.

This would be my first time really doing the whole paper thing. Not enthusiastic but want to get the most out of my arrows.
If you are just shooting from 25, how can you tell which way to rotate the nock?
I haven't done much, if any nock tuning so I don't know how rotating effects flight.

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[Nate_Beres]

I used to float/spine test/index all my arrows stiff side up, but have not done it lately as I dont think it actually matters, gold tip has a super tuning series on youtube and I somewhat follow that line of thinking...

here is my process, if I am going to use wraps, I bareshaft with wraps, but I dont go through the extra trouble of adding weight with electrical tape, I shoot very light vanes, usually aae pm 1.6 (3.3gr) so I just dont find it to make that much of a difference...

I turn nocks until bare shaft bullet hole, fletch, and then nock tune by grouping at 40. Sometimes I have to turn nocks, sometimes I dont. I number every arrow and cull arrows that dont group. Once I feel like my set up is tuned, I shoot every arrow with broadheads, and they have to hit the dot at 40 multiple times in order to get marked with an x. I hunt with my numbered arrows that have an x. I can usually get 9-10 arrows out of a dozen to be broadhead worthy. the cull arrows become test/practice arrows...

I'm running 4 fusion x2's at 5.8gr so I'll probably add some weight. 23.2gr + glue + 3.5" wrap adds up.
I'm really hoping to just be arrow tuning and not have to mess with my bow. Especially since it's the same arrows as I've been shooting all summer. The GT videos can be a little much to absorb sometimes. Thanks for the tips!

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[Billy Goat]

This would be my first time really doing the whole paper thing. Not enthusiastic but want to get the most out of my arrows.
If you are just shooting from 25, how can you tell which way to rotate the nock?
I haven't done much, if any nock tuning so I don't know how rotating effects flight.

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I never gave much thought to which direction I rotated. I guess I always go clockwise, I have seen a shaft go from a right impact to a left impact so I rotate it backwards. I'm using a target face that has 5 individual targets on it, mounted to a layered foam target. I shoot an arrow at each target, you can tell when you get it dialed in. Arrows are in the target straight and hitting where they are supposed to. If you get the tail of the shaft pointing in a direction other than where you were shooting from you need to rotate the nock 1/8 to 1/4 turn. This is assuming a tuned bow.

 

[Zac]

So you're saying it doesn't matter where the spine is as long as I'm getting holes?
And if set on 4 fletch (I am, need to with my vanes, by choice) then skip bareshaft entirely? I kind of like the sound of that.

I have a goat tuff Fletcher and have done plenty of 4's before. I only had trouble on micro shafts and when I was playing with 6 fletch (for fun).

Sounds like you have experience. I nock my arrows (In comparison to the string) in an X instead of a t or cross. With a cable to the right and drop away underneath, seems less likely for contact.

If I skip bareshaft and just nock tune, there's really just 2 options of how I fletch them: spine aligned with a vane or not. Does it matter? I want to at least pick one and be consistent. Thanks for the tips!

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So I'm saying it's hard to fletch the exact correct spot if your running a 4 fletch compared to a 3. Much easier to just use the cock vane as your index mark. Static spine doesn't matter that much because dynamic spine will usually react differently. Easiest method for a 4 fletch is to fletch them up and just rotate through the positions in front of paper. You are most likely wasting your time floating and all that other jazz. Using a spine tester to check run out is useful for cutting. However the rest is mostly a waste because you have to nock tune anyway.

 

[Nate_Beres]

So I'm saying it's hard to fletch the exact correct spot if your running a 4 fletch compared to a 3. Much easier to just use the cock vane as your index mark. Static spine doesn't matter that much because dynamic spine will usually react differently. Easiest method for a 4 fletch is to fletch them up and just rotate through the positions in front of paper. You are most likely wasting your time floating and all that other jazz. Using a spine tester to check run out is useful for cutting. However the rest is mostly a waste because you have to nock tune anyway.

Regarding the bend testing the arrows, any ideas on how to do this without a bow press or spine tester? I'm pretty crafty. Maybe like the bottom half of a bar clamp rigged up to a board with a square wall on both ends? A little 1/8" deep x 3/16" d hole on each side?
This makes a lot more sense than whatever side is lightest. It being the real life version where floating nisnjuat in theory.
Since that is still marked I'll be interested in seeing how they compare.
I've run a bunch of these through paper with the static spine in all different positions and I'm basically getting the same tear, high right.
I guess making sure Anything hasn't got out of tune is priority #1.

Maybe I'm not understanding this part correct but the difference in 3 vs 4 fletch and where the static is facing shouldn't be too different.
A cock vane gives you one option of nocking the arrow, 4 fletch gives you 2 (4 with a 90° nock turn). If I just number my arrows on the top 2 vanes then it'll be nocked the same every time.

So you really think I should just fletch them all up the same and nock tune, don't mess with bareshaft. Pretty sure I'm shooting 280fps or above with fixed blades so I want to get the most out of my arrows to prevent planing.

Thanks a lot, really appreciate the advice

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[Brendan]

Floating arrows definitely doesn't always work. You can float them, mark them, then test them in an actual spine tester and get different results. I think you're better off just shooting bare shafts or using a spine tester.

Testing any sort of spine using a spine tester isn't necessary if you're going to shoot every arrow as a bare shaft and index nocks, but that's a little bit of a pain in the rear... And, in order to index shooting bare shafts, you have to get the bow tuned, and be consistent yourself enough that you know when it's you or the arrow.

Here's my OCD / anal retentive process, and I've never once had a spine issue (when I follow my own recommendations) and I've never had to turn a nock. And, I can say ever single time these arrows shoot and group better than I'm capable of. My "hero" groups are pretty ridiculous.


* Start with the readout of a good spine program like AA or Pinwheel. I use pinwheel and strive for an ideal to moderately stiff arrow.

* Buy good components. I don't use outserts. I do use match grade shafts. I like 5mm shafts (Easton Axis and BE Rampage) with a HIT insert as I've never had a wobble / concentricity issue.

* When cutting down my arrows, I put them on a spinner, and check runout at each end with a dial indicator. I cut a couple inches off the worse end, and then repeat until I'm at my final length.

* I put arrows on a squaring device and square both ends.

* Clean your arrows well, install your inserts

* Put them on a spine tester, mark the stiff spine. I use a RAM with upgraded roller bearings to make it easier.

* I fletch with the stiff mark up. No reason other than I've always done it that way. I fletch right helical with about a 1.5 degree offset. I've had good luck with both 3 and 4 fletch, I like the AAE Max Stealth.

* When I get ready to shoot broadheads, Every single one needs to spin without visible wobble on an arrow spinner.


Does all this matter? Who knows, but it works. And despite it looking like a lot, it doesn't really take that much time at all.

 

[Brendan]

One clarification from above on bare shafts:

There is testing every bare shaft and twisting nocks to get them to group together as a way of aligning dynamic spine instead of testing on a spine tester or something like that. That's for building arrows before fletching. I don't do this.

There is also shooting bare shafts for tuning a bow, and monitoring your own form. I do this religiously. As part of the tuning process I never shoot through paper, I shoot bare shafts vs. fletched shafts first, then switch to field points vs broadheads, both fletched, at long range to finalize my tune. Then I'll shoot a couple bare shafts every practice session to see if my form is staying good - you'll see it if it isn't.

 

[Nate_Beres]

One clarification from above on bare shafts:

There is testing every bare shaft and twisting nocks to get them to group together as a way of aligning dynamic spine instead of testing on a spine tester or something like that. That's for building arrows before fletching. I don't do this.

There is also shooting bare shafts for tuning a bow, and monitoring your own form. I do this religiously. As part of the tuning process I never shoot through paper, I shoot bare shafts vs. fletched shafts first, then switch to field points vs broadheads, both fletched, at long range to finalize my tune. Then I'll shoot a couple bare shafts every practice session to see if my form is staying good - you'll see it if it isn't.

Good stuff. I got almost 2 dozen shafts for free a few years ago because they're short. I can't give up 1/4".
I squared the shzz out of both ends and the inserts this time.
Changing gears, I'm starting to question whether not 3° with 4 is too much.
Having fixed blades, high speed, thick brush (unlikely far shots) led me to this set up. Now I'm reading about what direction unfletched arrows come out of your bow (would that change from arrow to arrow) and others 4 fletch set ups, I'm second guessing myself.
Step 1 is going to be take my bow in to ensure nothing's off.
At this point I'm not sure which will be more of a headache:
Option a.) Fletch, then nock tune each one
Option b.) Build a spine tester, fletch according and let er rip (maybe rotating nocks if I've got some wonkey ones)
Thanks a lot. I think in the past I've left some forgiveness/consistency on the table. Feels like my accuracy has plateaued

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[Zac]

Regarding the bend testing the arrows, any ideas on how to do this without a bow press or spine tester? I'm pretty crafty. Maybe like the bottom half of a bar clamp rigged up to a board with a square wall on both ends? A little 1/8" deep x 3/16" d hole on each side?
This makes a lot more sense than whatever side is lightest. It being the real life version where floating nisnjuat in theory.
Since that is still marked I'll be interested in seeing how they compare.
I've run a bunch of these through paper with the static spine in all different positions and I'm basically getting the same tear, high right.
I guess making sure Anything hasn't got out of tune is priority #1.

Maybe I'm not understanding this part correct but the difference in 3 vs 4 fletch and where the static is facing shouldn't be too different.
A cock vane gives you one option of nocking the arrow, 4 fletch gives you 2 (4 with a 90° nock turn). If I just number my arrows on the top 2 vanes then it'll be nocked the same every time.

So you really think I should just fletch them all up the same and nock tune, don't mess with bareshaft. Pretty sure I'm shooting 280fps or above with fixed blades so I want to get the most out of my arrows to prevent planing.

Thanks a lot, really appreciate the advice

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I just posted that video as something you could try. Definitely don't think it's necessary. If you like 4 fletch that is fine as long as it doesn't drag your FOC below around 10 percent. Just fletch them, and nock tune. Breaking down the arrow into quarters is usually sufficient. This is the method Gillingham uses.

 

[Nate_Beres]

I just posted that video as something you could try. Definitely don't think it's necessary. If you like 4 fletch that is fine as long as it doesn't drag your FOC below around 10 percent. Just fletch them, and nock tune. Breaking down the arrow into quarters is usually sufficient. This is the method Gillingham uses.

F%k it, I'm fletching them tonight. Thank you. I'm at 15.8% so no worries there.
I spent 5 minutes on a very crude spine tester and it was going to take a lot more for that to be effective so problem solved.

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[wapitibob]

Static spine doesn't mean anything. Shoot them thru paper and index so they all tear the same; doesn't matter how that tear looks. Fletch off the index. You want every arrow to have the same
reaction out of the bow.

 

[RevJT]

Rebuilding some arrows and want to take my attention to detail another step further.
Everything is the same as I have been running but with some lightly used shafts.
Gt velocity, 26" (can't give up a 1/4", got for free)
83gr insert, 125gr tip. .246 to .166 nock inserts on the back. Out of a hoyt nitrum turbo 72# @28.5"

I've floated my shafts to mark the stiff side of each as a starting point to bareshaft tune.

Is there a rule of thumb of where the stiff side should be facing? I've heard the cock vane is where it should be, but I use 4 fletch set up.
Does it matter where it's facing as long as it's consistent and shooting bullet holes through paper?

Should I bareshaft tune with my arrow wraps on? Should I have my wrap overlap opposite the stiff side?

Should I shoot my bhd's with the bareshaft? I'm using fixed blade (125gr shuttle t) and an estimated 280ish fps, so it's a little higher chance of planing.

I've never personally spine indexed/nock tuned or bareshaft tuned. Really hoping I don't have to move anything and create a bigger issue.

I'm all ears for suggestions on what to do before I put my wrap and vanes on, then getting my bhd's dialed in the least amount of shots as possible.




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Are there any pictures of the electrical tape process? Videos that can be referenced? Thanks

 

[RevJT]

I gave up on spine indexing, I get better results with just bareshafting and nock tuning. I put electrical tape on my bareshaft arrow for tuning the bow, but not for nock tuning. Once I have all the bareshafts flying good I put a sharpie mark on the top of my arrow. Then I fletch my cock vane to that mark. I just rotate my nock to put the mark in the correct position on my bitz, then rotate my nock back to where it needs to be once fletched.

When I'm bareshaft tuning I don't run them through paper. I shoot 5 spot target at 25 yards. I don't give too much thought to the paper, it's a good starting point but I don't think it tells the whole story.

Are there any pictures or videos that you can reference with electrical tape on a barshaft? Thanks

 

[Billy Goat]

Are there any pictures or videos that you can reference with electrical tape on a barshaft? Thanks

All I do is figure out a length of electrical tape that weighs the same as the vanes I'll be using. Then I wrap the arrow with that length of tape, normally thin on the front, doubling the back end of the wrap, over the same section of arrow that the vanes will be on.

 

[Holocene]

There's a lot of black magic out there about how to set up shafts. A lot of practices you read about (especially on forums) are outdated, voodoo, or both.

I'm not a pro shooter, but I do trust a few who consistently win at high levels of archery and tend to trust their advice.

Two resources to check out on this journey:

1. Tim Gillingham's talk at the 2021 ATA show walks through a solid arrow tuning process
2. Watch Jesse Broadwater's Vimeo class on how to set up a bow. You'll have to spend some coin, but it's fantastic, legit, and methodical advice from one of the finest archers living.

3. There's a guy named Padgett over on ArcheryTalk. Look him up on there. He's a semi pro 3D shooter from down in Alabama. If you pay him $10, you can get access to his online articles, and a few of those go through a detailed tuning process. He diverges slightly from Gillingham here -- he does bare shaft tune nock his arrows, but not to get a perfect tear necessarilly, only to make sure that all the shafts tear the same through paper.

This is a critical point to accept and Wapitibob made the point well. I will repeat it for emphasis. It does not matter what the bathtub float or the spine tester or the little mark Victory puts on the arrow says -- what happens to the arrow coming out of the bow matters most. This is the arrows dynamic reaction, aka dynamic spine. One point to add: you can really only bare shaft nock tune if your form is dialed. If you are a little inconsistent with your form, you'll see that in the bareshaft paper tears. Also, your bow needs to be supertuned. Phenomenal form and a supertuned bow can get bullet hold bareshaft holes with every arrow out to 15 maybe 20 yards if you are a stud. You need to see the same tear every time with every arrow. That's a goal anyway. At that point, put a mark on the arrow to where it nock tunes dynamically, then you can fletch to that.

Last piece of voodoo -- I've seen target archers accept a little bit of tear on their final tune. Basically, they get the bow group tuned to shoot the best field point rounds they possibly can, then you go back to either bare shaft tune or paper tune and crap there's a tear! They leave the tear because who cares the bow is shooting stinkin lights out. However, if you are hunting (especially with fixed heads) that tear could cause broadhead planing, which you obviously don't want. So, for optimal target setups I shoot what groups best with my field point arrows and will accept a little tear. For optimal broadhead setups, I don't generally accept a tear at all and strive for perfect bareshaft bullet holes with all my arrows so that broadhead is leaving perfectly straight. Again, I'm not a pro and don't hear a lot of talk on this last concept so take it with a grain of salt.

We are talking about super fancy high level arrow building, but it sounds like that's the direction you are trying to go so best of luck.

Just think, you'll never have to fill that bath tub again! For arrows anyway.