arrow build help

[BKhunter]

Hey All,

I am looking to build a new arrow and need some help with my selection and arrow length. My current bow setup is a Matthews V3 27 1/2 draw @ 70#. I am looking at either the easton axis match grade or the easton pro comp. Was also looking at doing the iron will insert system with collars. Would you do the insert system and how many grains up front? Also what length do you think would tune the best? I am mostly hunting white tail but don't want to change arrows if I go for elk or mule deer. Thanks in advance.

BK

 

[BoilerBowHunter]

I’m not a super experienced archer, but I have built my own arrows. Here’s my take:

Arrow length should correlate to draw length. Never heard it correlated to tuning.

If you’re doing outserts then I assume you’re interested in a heavier arrow? If so, I’d recommend googling the “Ranch Fairy” and educating yourself on his process. They have a kit you can buy to test different weights. If one works best you can then match your outserts/inserts and broadhead to hit a desired weight. If you aren’t worried about a heavier arrow then just strap on a 100-150 grain field point or BH and fire away.

Arrow selection- I think they’re likely all the same within reason. Don’t overthink it.

 

[Felton]

If you want to play around with your FOC Here’s gold tips FOC calculator.

Then you can take that arrow weight and plug it into This arrow speed calculator.

I found carbon express’s tutorial on arrow length and spine useful. It takes you through a series of questions to determine what spine you should have for your bow and arrow length. Now that’s just for their arrows but you can use their tutorial and idea with other arrow companies spine chart. It won’t be a direct correlation but will give you a good idea.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I would recommend sticking with a standard diameter (.244-.246"/6.5mm) shaft for simpler and cheaper insert options that are also generally more durable and more available. IMO the supposed decreased wind drift and increased penetration of a smaller diameter shaft are negligible in practice.

But if you're dead set on a small (.204"/5mm) or micro (.166"/4mm) shaft, a hidden insert (HIT) with collar is the best insert option. A .166" HIT has Deep Six (6-40) threads, which severely limits your broadhead choices. A .204" HIT has standard (8-32) threads. I don't see any real advantage to using a steel Iron Will HIT over an aluminum or brass Easton HIT. Steel is a stronger material, but the strength of the system comes more from the carbon shaft surrounding the HIT than from the HIT itself. I do think a collar is a good idea on a small or micro shaft.

300 or 340-350 spine will likely work best depending on how much weight you want to put on the front and how long you want to cut the shaft. Below is qSpine output for a hypothetical 27.5" carbon-to-carbon Easton Axis 5mm with 175 gr total on the front (head + insert + collar) and 30 gr on the back. 450-550 gr total arrow weight is a good range for deer and elk.

Bow inputs: 342 fps IBO, 27.5" DL, 27" ATA, 6" BH, 85% LO

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Also, there are much better sources out there than Ranch Fairy. Some of his info is okay, but he's definitely not my go-to recommendation for advice.

 

[BKhunter]

I would recommend sticking with a standard diameter (.244-.246"/6.5mm) shaft for simpler and cheaper insert options that are also generally more durable and more available. IMO the supposed decreased wind drift and increased penetration of a smaller diameter shaft are negligible in practice.

But if you're dead set on a small (.204"/5mm) or micro (.166"/4mm) shaft, a hidden insert (HIT) with collar is the best insert option. A .166" HIT has Deep Six (6-40) threads, which severely limits your broadhead choices. A .204" HIT has standard (8-32) threads. I don't see any real advantage to using a steel Iron Will HIT over an aluminum or brass Easton HIT. Steel is a stronger material, but the strength of the system comes more from the carbon shaft surrounding the HIT than from the HIT itself. I do think a collar is a good idea on a small or micro shaft.

300 or 340-350 spine will likely work best depending on how much weight you want to put on the front and how long you want to cut the shaft. Below is qSpine output for a hypothetical 27.5" carbon-to-carbon Easton Axis 5mm with 175 gr total on the front (head + insert + collar) and 30 gr on the back. 450-550 gr total arrow weight is a good range for deer and elk.

Bow inputs: 342 fps IBO, 27.5" DL, 27" ATA, 6" BH, 85% LO
View attachment 410594

Thank you! I see a lot of people talk about the difference in arrow length and the difference in tuning. I’m still learning all this but would you cut carbon to carbon and not the well of the nock to carbon? Also, is standard practice for the arrow to be your draw length?


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[TheTone]

You’ve gotten some good advice IMO. I went through so many ideas in my head before I spent a bunch on some arrows I’m not sure I really love. In the end I should have just bought axis 340’s, ran regular hits with 25 grain iron will collars and lived happily ever after

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I see a lot of people talk about the difference in arrow length and the difference in tuning. I’m still learning all this but would you cut carbon to carbon and not the well of the nock to carbon? Also, is standard practice for the arrow to be your draw length?

Whether or not to include the distance from the throat of the nock to the rear of the shaft in your "arrow length" measurement depends on what you're doing with that measurement. Spine calculators ask for carbon-to-carbon shaft length. When you cut a shaft, you do so without a nock installed so you need to know the desired carbon-to-carbon length. The nock is part of the finished arrow though and does have a (minor) effect on where the front of the arrow sits relative to your rest. Nock throat-to-rear of shaft distance is usually around 1/8" to 3/8", so it's not really going to make much difference if you include it or ignore it. I use carbon-to-carbon length by default because it's unambiguous and doesn't vary with what make/model of nock I'm using.

For compound bows, it's very common for your arrow to be shorter than your draw length. Draw length is the distance (at full draw) from nocking point to the deepest part of the bow's grip plus 1.75". The deepest part of the grip is approximately in line with the rest mounting hole (Berger hole). On most compound bow rests, the arm/fork/cradle that contacts the arrow sits well behind (1" or more) the Berger hole. The fact that draw length is measured in front of the Berger hole plus the fact that the rest sits behind the Berger hole means you can shoot an arrow significantly shorter than your draw length. I used 27.5" carbon-to-carbon in the hypothetical arrow above just to give you a rough idea on spine. You could likely go significantly shorter, although you don't want to go so short that the collar (if you end up using one) makes contact with the rest. As you shorten an arrow, its dynamic spine gets stronger/stiffer. Depending on how short you go and how much weight you put on the front, 340-350 spine may be a better choice for you than 300.

 

[BKhunter]

You’ve gotten some good advice IMO. I went through so many ideas in my head before I spent a bunch on some arrows I’m not sure I really love. In the end I should have just bought axis 340’s, ran regular hits with 25 grain iron will collars and lived happily ever after

Yea I was looking at the Iron Will insert just not sure how much weight to run up front. My Broadheads are 125 so was thinking going with the 10 grain collar and 15 grain insert. I feel like this is a rabbit hole I can't give myself out of. Think I am overthinking this a lot. Then tuning is a whole other rabbit hold. Do I do bare shaft or just build and then paper tune.

 

[BKhunter]

Whether or not to include the distance from the throat of the nock to the rear of the shaft in your "arrow length" measurement depends on what you're doing with that measurement. Spine calculators ask for carbon-to-carbon shaft length. When you cut a shaft, you do so without a nock installed so you need to know the desired carbon-to-carbon length. The nock is part of the finished arrow though and does have a (minor) effect on where the front of the arrow sits relative to your rest. Nock throat-to-rear of shaft distance is usually around 1/8" to 3/8", so it's not really going to make much difference if you include it or ignore it. I use carbon-to-carbon length by default because it's unambiguous and doesn't vary with what make/model of nock I'm using.

For compound bows, it's very common for your arrow to be shorter than your draw length. Draw length is the distance (at full draw) from nocking point to the deepest part of the bow's grip plus 1.75". The deepest part of the grip is approximately in line with the rest mounting hole (Berger hole). On most compound bow rests, the arm/fork/cradle that contacts the arrow sits well behind (1" or more) the Berger hole. The fact that draw length is measured in front of the Berger hole plus the fact that the rest sits behind the Berger hole means you can shoot an arrow significantly shorter than your draw length. I used 27.5" carbon-to-carbon in the hypothetical arrow above just to give you a rough idea on spine. You could likely go significantly shorter, although you don't want to go so short that the collar (if you end up using one) makes contact with the rest. As you shorten an arrow, its dynamic spine gets stronger/stiffer. Depending on how short you go and how much weight you put on the front, 340-350 spine may be a better choice for you than 300.

Thanks and this is helpful. My concern is buying these expensive arrows and then messing it up. Right now I was looking at the axis 300 match with the iron will HIT system of a 125 BH, 10 grain collar, and 15 grain insert. From the systems I am looking at this gives me an arrow around 480 grains and slightly stiff which I think is fine.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Do I do bare shaft or just build and then paper tune.

Build the arrows then start tuning. If you want to include bareshafts in your tuning regimen (a good idea but not 100% necessary), just leave one arrow unfletched (or cut the vanes off one arrow if you're buying them pre-fletched). Generally speaking for a compound bow, the adjustments made during tuning should be made to the bow, not to the arrow. Paper tuning is okay for initially getting your bow in the ballpark, bareshaft tuning is better, but broadhead tuning ultimately trumps all for a hunter.

My concern is buying these expensive arrows and then messing it up. Right now I was looking at the axis 300 match with the iron will HIT system of a 125 BH, 10 grain collar, and 15 grain insert. From the systems I am looking at this gives me an arrow around 480 grains and slightly stiff which I think is fine.

Go with all Iron Will components if you want, but a $4.16 IW 15 gr titanium HIT can't do anything a $1.25 Easton 16 gr aluminum HIT can't do.

Don't stress out about trying to get the spine exactly "right". Spine charts/calculators just give general guidelines, not set-in-stone requirements for good arrow flight. Compound bows can handle a fairly wide range of spines. 300 should work just fine at your specs.

 

[BKhunter]

Build the arrows then start tuning. If you want to include bareshafts in your tuning regimen (a good idea but not 100% necessary), just leave one arrow unfletched (or cut the vanes off one arrow if you're buying them pre-fletched). Generally speaking for a compound bow, the adjustments made during tuning should be made to the bow, not to the arrow. Paper tuning is okay for initially getting your bow in the ballpark, bareshaft tuning is better, but broadhead tuning ultimately trumps all for a hunter.


Go with all Iron Will components if you want, but a $4.16 IW 15 gr titanium HIT can't do anything a $1.25 Easton 16 gr aluminum HIT can't do.

Don't stress out about trying to get the spine exactly "right". Spine charts/calculators just give general guidelines, not set-in-stone requirements for good arrow flight. Compound bows can handle a fairly wide range of spines. 300 should work just fine at your specs.

Thanks this is super helpful. Do you have any videos you would recommend for the running process of bare shaft and broad head tuning? This is the first time I’m doing all my own work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Thanks this is super helpful. Do you have any videos you would recommend for the running process of bare shaft and broad head tuning? This is the first time I’m doing all my own work.

The chart below is the most concise comparison I've found of various tuning methods. Note that some of the corrections listed won't apply to your particular bow (Mathews V3 doesn't have yokes or an adjustable cable guard).



Gold Tip's "Arrow Super Tuning" video series on YouTube is a good resource: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkzHyL48cWmQEsIXPMhACznwgRmWEKHMP

If you're serious about doing your own tuning and other bow work, consider buying the Bow Shop Bible app. It's a bit pricey, but it's worth it IMO to have all the info you need from a reputable source concentrated in one spot (with no annoying ads).

 

[Arctic Hunter]

I shot the same specs last year. I shot a victory rip tko with a 50 grain hit and 125 tip. Cut 28”. Tuned perfect.

 

[TX_hunter]

If you want to play around with your FOC Here’s gold tips FOC calculator.

Then you can take that arrow weight and plug it into This arrow speed calculator.

I found carbon express’s tutorial on arrow length and spine useful. It takes you through a series of questions to determine what spine you should have for your bow and arrow length. Now that’s just for their arrows but you can use their tutorial and idea with other arrow companies spine chart. It won’t be a direct correlation but will give you a good idea.

I would recommend this calculator instead:

Arrow Speed Calculator — Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

The arrow speed calculator will help you determine your arrow speed given the weight of your broadhead, draw length, and other factors.

www.ashbybowhunting.org

I've used the one you linked before but it tends to underestimate actual speed once you start adding arrow weight. It's 20fps off with my current setup through a chrono.

The ashby calculator (until recently it was on the Dynamic Archery Solutions site but he shut it down), is within 1fps on my setup. I've tested it with chronograph, 3 different bows and different arrow weight and it's generally within 1.5% variance.

 

[Felton]

I would recommend this calculator instead:

Arrow Speed Calculator — Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

The arrow speed calculator will help you determine your arrow speed given the weight of your broadhead, draw length, and other factors.

www.ashbybowhunting.org

I've used the one you linked before but it tends to underestimate actual speed once you start adding arrow weight. It's 20fps off with my current setup through a chrono.

The ashby calculator (until recently it was on the Dynamic Archery Solutions site but he shut it down), is within 1fps on my setup. I've tested it with chronograph, 3 different bows and different arrow weight and it's generally within 1.5% variance.

Awesome! Thank you

 

[TX_hunter]

Awesome! Thank you

You're welcome.

If you use the corrected IBO method described on the website it will be spot on for your bow with different arrow weights.

 

[CMKRobot]

The chart below is the most concise comparison I've found of various tuning methods. Note that some of the corrections listed won't apply to your particular bow (Mathews V3 doesn't have yokes or an adjustable cable guard).
View attachment 410778
View attachment 410779

Gold Tip's "Arrow Super Tuning" video series on YouTube is a good resource: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkzHyL48cWmQEsIXPMhACznwgRmWEKHMP

If you're serious about doing your own tuning and other bow work, consider buying the Bow Shop Bible app. It's a bit pricey, but it's worth it IMO to have all the info you need from a reputable source concentrated in one spot (with no annoying ads).

Thank you for this. I have been using this guide for me and my nepphew. we are both starting with our first bows.

 

[Bump79]

I’m not a super experienced archer, but I have built my own arrows. Here’s my take:

Arrow length should correlate to draw length. Never heard it correlated to tuning.

If you’re doing outserts then I assume you’re interested in a heavier arrow? If so, I’d recommend googling the “Ranch Fairy” and educating yourself on his process. They have a kit you can buy to test different weights. If one works best you can then match your outserts/inserts and broadhead to hit a desired weight. If you aren’t worried about a heavier arrow then just strap on a 100-150 grain field point or BH and fire away.

Arrow selection- I think they’re likely all the same within reason. Don’t overthink it.

I'd strongly recommend not tuning into the Ranch Fairy. He is very off-base with his tuning at times. Inside Out Precision, Dudley, Gillingham and Aron Synder are much more knowledgeable. If I'm going to watch something regarding tuning then it's going to be from someone who actually knows their stuff and shoots professionally. Not a guy who admits he has bad form and doesn't know how to tune a bow.

The whole tuning an arrow to your bow is only valid if you're bow is already in tune.

 

[BKhunter]

You’ve gotten some good advice IMO. I went through so many ideas in my head before I spent a bunch on some arrows I’m not sure I really love. In the end I should have just bought axis 340’s, ran regular hits with 25 grain iron will collars and lived happily ever after

When you say regular hits what were you running. I think I am settled on the 340's as to not over spine but was curious what components I can mix and match. Looks like you combined the iron will collars with a HIT system and was curious where you landed.