Are we really hunting?

[Macintosh]

OP mentioned bait

If Joe hunts over bait or not, what is the quantifiable effect on wildlife populations and others? IMO beyond answering the question based on that criteria, it's preference.

If the goal is to kill a metric ton of does because the population is too large and not allowing a single oak tree to regenerate and reducing the overall carrying capacity of the forest, maybe it's not only ok but NECESSARY.

On the other hand, if lots of people dont want to do it, so every deer in the neighborhood spends all their time on a few bait piles, does it actually PREVENT killing the necessary number of deer, or are there disease issues, etc?

I dont know the answer, but that's the approach I take to answering the question for myself. Highly suspect the real answers arent all super clear in one direction or the other, as well.

 

[bnewt3]

Not to me. To some it might.

But legitimately, the question was about using technology to make the activity easier. It's not a big leap to include manipulating the environment to make hunting easier. Maybe you can argue a difference in that regard between a food plot located and timed specifically for hunting, versus a legit farm crop, ie is one versus the other more a part of the landscape to be worked around rather than manipulated for specific purpose? Maybe, maybe not. Heck, somewhere on that continuum lies logging which happens to create deer food, and old abandoned homesteads on public land that happen to have a tangle of old apple trees that still produce fruit. Should I stay away from them too? Regardless, earlier I asked about what the quantifiable impact of these things was on the wildlife populations and others. ie, if Joe uses a crossbow, does that impact other hunters and wildlife populations in the big picture, and if so how? I would simply ask the same question here. If Joe hunts over a bean field or not, what is the quantifiable effect on wildlife populations and others? IMO beyond answering the question based on that criteria, it's preference.

agreed, logging is big too. The family land I have access to has logging happening right now, will continue throughout the next few years. Im excited for it. burns, replanting, thinning.

I have identified a few mature oaks that I hope they leave be, but its not my land so i have no say.

 

[Elkangle]

Its too easy ! Anyone can kill big bucks...
Its too hard ! Theres no big bucks...

Its pretty much on par with having hunger and obesity be the top problems of humanity

 

[bnewt3]

Odd thought I just had

I wonder if any anti-hunting folks use bait to keep game on their land where they dont allow hunting?

 

[hunt1up]

My two kids hunt during our IL youth season in mid October. They also hunt all of our 3 month archery season, muzzleloader season, shotgun seasons both early and late. They hunt when it's 85 degrees, they hunt when it's -10. They hunt in a tree, they hunt in a blind. They hunt with a bow, a crossbow, and they hunt with a gun. They also hunt antelope, elk, and turkeys. They'll sit for 5 hours and they'll hike for 5 miles.

Youth season hasn't made my kids soft. They're better hunters than most adult men I know. Youth season is just another 3 days of the season. The main benefit is the kids can hunt deer doing normal deer things. Not dealing with all the slob ADULTS that blast every deer they see during the general gun seasons. My kids pass young deer, rarely shoot does, and have plenty of patience. My gripe is with the 50 year old dudes that flat out whack and stack deer, big small, doe or buck, doesn't matter.

I've got no issue with the seasons or legal methods in our state(or any state). My beef is with the grown men that absolutely obliterate the deer population with no concern for the consequences. As a hunter I've got more faith in the kids than I do the adults.

 

[wind gypsy]

@bnewt3 have you ever seen a perennial food plot?
perennial food plot = habitat
annual food plot = not habitat

I dont really care if people do either, but strictly from a distance that seems a pretty easy distinction to make. Also, I enjoy my apple trees and oak trees, so it must be OK if I do it. ("grin", just in case that wasnt understood). In truth my view of both is really predicated on what I enjoy about hunting based on where I live and what is available to me as far as where and how to hunt. If my access and hunting looked different I'm certain I would have a different approach.

Also, I can only wish my oaks will bear fruit inside 10 years. More like 20-25.

The thickest (annual) cereal grain food plots i've ever seen were 2 and 3 years after the crop was planted and regrowth was simply from mowing mature wheat or rye and letting it reseed itself..

On the flip side, "perennial" clover plots can go south pretty quick in lots of cases without some diligent care.

In either case, the food plot provides forage for wildlife, soil stabilization, and other benefits for all or large chunks of the year that bait does not and it's spread out across acres or at least thousands of square feet and not concentrating all that feeding in one little spot.

 

[Macintosh]

“Functionally perennial”? Might be off base, as there may be more perennial food olots than I thought, but still just a hypothetical. Was not meant to be an indictment of food plots, just a way someone could hypothetically differentiate if they were inclined.

 

[TWoch]

I've got no issue with the seasons or legal methods in our state(or any state). My beef is with the grown men that absolutely obliterate the deer population with no concern for the consequences. As a hunter I've got more faith in the kids than I do the adults.

Another central Illinois whitetail hunter. Do you believe our deer population has been obliterated by grown men? What about our age class? EHD, technology, or over killing? Because harvest numbers/population counts don’t agree with your “obliterate the deer population” assessment. I think you’d agree that the trophy quality has subsided while deer numbers have increased. We’re back at 2000s/pre-dieoff numbers. Need to kill more does. Thats management. The 2000s QDMA 12:1 buck:doe ratio should be long gone by now. At least the state does a great job with their harvest statistics. Maybe we could tease something out of it…

New IL law helps farmers, landowners with nuisance deer control

A law taking effect Jan. 1 will give landowners and farmers more flexibility to hunt deer on their property.

www.wandtv.com

https://ngrrec-hunt-illinois-wordpress-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/02095436/2024-2025-Illinois-Deer-Harvest-Report.pdf

Do you think all the extra crossbow hunters are killing does the end of October thru the rut? To act like crossbows aren’t having an effect on our population is laughable. They’re shooting bucks with a weapon that’s indisputably easier to be successful. Oh ya…let’s sprinkle in cell cams. We’re becoming overpopulated with a trash trophy class where a 2.5/3.5 can rarely escape the surveillance gauntlet.

 

[hunt1up]

Another central Illinois whitetail hunter. Do you believe our deer population has been obliterated by grown men? What about our age class? EHD, technology, or over killing? Because harvest numbers/population counts don’t agree with your “obliterate the deer population” assessment. I think you’d agree that the trophy quality has subsided while deer numbers have increased. We’re back at 2000s/pre-dieoff numbers. Need to kill more does. Thats management. The 2000s QDMA 12:1 buck:doe ratio should be long gone by now. At least the state does a great job with their harvest statistics. Maybe we could tease something out of it…

New IL law helps farmers, landowners with nuisance deer control

A law taking effect Jan. 1 will give landowners and farmers more flexibility to hunt deer on their property.

www.wandtv.com

https://ngrrec-hunt-illinois-wordpress-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/02095436/2024-2025-Illinois-Deer-Harvest-Report.pdf

View attachment 990307View attachment 990309
Do you think all the extra crossbow hunters are killing does the end of October thru the rut? To act like crossbows aren’t having an effect on our population is laughable. They’re shooting bucks with a weapon that’s indisputably easier to be successful. We’re becoming overpopulated with a trash trophy class.

I hunt two CWD counties and I’d say the population is down a good 30% from its peak. People still make sure their get their tags filled but from a smaller, younger pool of deer. Our county harvests are below the historical highs. I agree trophy quality is a shadow of what it was 15-20 years ago.

For my area, late CWD seasons account for roughly 8% of harvest. That never used to exist, so that’s a factor.

I’m my area pressure during the rut is higher than it’s ever been. I don’t hate crossbows for what they are necessarily, but it did create a new contingent of adult hunters that have started to heavily hunt the rut that didn’t before.

For me, in my area, there’s multiple factors. Unlimited tags, extra seasons, CWD and some culling, more guys in the woods for longer, and so on.

Didn’t mean to derail the thread. Feel free to PM me if you’d like to chat on it.

 

[TWoch]

I agree there are more many more factors than just technology (droughts), but I think our discussion is more on point with the original inquiry. No animosity meant. Just a passionate local that wants our old herd back. At least our turkeys are on the rise in a lot of areas.

 

[hunt1up]

I agree there are more many more factors than just technology (droughts), but I think our discussion is more on point with the original inquiry. No animosity meant. Just a passionate local that wants our old herd back. At least our turkeys are on the rise in a lot of areas.

Totally agree with your desire for a return to the good ole days. It’s drastically different. We used to apply on paper apps for gun tags and you’d be lucky if you drew both a buck and doe tag. Some guys would only draw doe. Some guys would draw nothing. Now there’s 1000 leftover tags.

It’s a big state so of course things aren’t the same everywhere. I get to hunt some quality ground in a far more managed western county and the difference is astounding from my local area. But there’s collective local management. Around here’s it’s an absolute rodeo.

Agreed on turkeys. That has been the polar opposite and I love to see it.

 

[ddd-shooter]

“If it’s legal then I’m ok with it”

Is the persons response who has decided not to critically think about the why and how of sportsmanship.

 

[Wizzum]

If it's legal, it's not your place. If it's legal, but you still feel it's unethical, write your game commissioner / congressman. There's not going to be a good answer on a western mountain hunting forum, so perhaps you are just looking for confirmation to your own bias.

 

[Predator_SD]

Right, and I'm not necessarily arguing about whether baiting or cameras should be legal and I'm certainly not trying to come off sounding like I'm better than anyone for the way I choose to hunt. All I'm saying is that when you take it to extremes, the argument that as long as it's legal hopefully falls apart. It should be more of an issue that we don't agree with what our lawmakers are considering to be legal.

It’s already being taken to extremes. Running 12 cell cams, “bow” hunting with crossbows, and then using thermal drones to find the deer you wounded because you never bother to practice with your crossbow is a pretty extreme imo.

Line was crossed long ago. Sadly most don’t care.

 

[Predator_SD]

This is sort of what I was getting at. Seasons and bag limits and tag allocations are reviewed to make sure any changes actually accomplished their design as far as population objective and hunter satisfaction. Its an iterative process that continually adjusts itself, and for the most part it isnt subject to the difficulties and timelines of legislation. There are clearly issues, but overall its working very well.
My question is, what would be the PURPOSE of differentiating between a vertical bow and a crossbow? Imo that purpose is already built-in, in the form of the seasons, bag limits and method of take regulations and reviews. What exactly would it accomplish for you if crossbow hunting was differentiated?

Re: why even differentiate at all—because it results in more opportunity, and in many cases one season doesnt kill enough deer. So in addition to the guy that only wants to hunt with a bow, they also want the new hunter and the rifle hunter out as well.

Ask WI DNR they differentiated for decades. It was only the last 10 years or so they changed that to appease a certain growing demographic.

 

[Predator_SD]

Im all-in on getting kids hooked on hunting. If some early success helps with that—and I believe it does—then Im all for making that happen. My state puts the youth weekend ahead of our rifle season. Any legal weapon and any deer (must be accompanied by an adult hunter). Also a youth waterfowl weekend ahead of that opener (same). And a youth turkey weekend. Less-skittish animals on a more predictable pattern and a bit nicer weather, and timed so its before many of the extracurricular school activities really kick in, is all part of maintaining a tradition of hunting. Not everything needs to be hard right from the start.
Not sure how anyone would argue against that, but I’ll argue for it if you want.

The harder is to acclompish the greater the reward when you do acclompish it. Kids today are being robbed by this idea we need to constantly lower the bar to make everything easier for them.

How did any of us ever get hooked on hunting in the 80s when we had to hunt just like everyone else with zero coddling?

 

[Predator_SD]

You’re comparing a 40 year old late onset hunter or what ever they are called to a 13 year old kid. I would hope the 40 year old is a little more capable.

The problem nowadays is people think a 13 yo kid isn’t capable.

 

[Macintosh]

Ask WI DNR they differentiated for decades. It was only the last 10 years or so they changed that to appease a certain growing demographic.

Same with almost every other state out there. And yes, they changed the reg to reduce the barrier to entry for new hunters (ie “appease a certain crowd”). There were also multiple other reasons in my state and the other states Im familiar with, one of them being unequivocal data that hunting participation was declining, combined with repeated harvests below target—based on data they were looking for a way to increase both participation and harvest. My understanding of your post is that you clearly have a problem with crossbows, my entire point was about people complaining with no statement about what they want to see happen differently as far as the results of a hunting season. If the harvest is too high, there is a mechanism to correct that built in. So what is the result YOU are looking for in allowing or not allowing crossbows? Or are you just bitching about crossbows because its not how you prefer to hunt? Post #209 above is bringing data and a desired outcome. There is no data to support causation, but theres a correlation and a desired outcome that could be brought to a regulatory commission and discussed to make a change if it was warranted. So what are you bringing?

 

[JBradley500]

I was kind of proud when my best friend, who was living by trail cams the last 5 years, told me he wanted to be surprised by what he may see hunting. He stopped using them.

My other friend got really into trail cams this year, the ones that send the pics to your phone immediately. It seemed to kill his motivation to hunt (mainly once the weather got unpleasant) when he didn't see as much on camera as expected.

I think this is like Live Scope is to fishing. Half the fun of hunting and fishing is being blind to the unknown things you may come across.

As for bait, I'm kind of conflicted. I don't personally feel baiting with food is an admirable way to hunt. This is just a personal opinion. Invasive species, sure whatever, but not deer, bear, etc. My conflict is that I don't mind people scents and things like that. I don't know why it doesn't bother me, but I guess I compartmentalize that with tricking a passing deer versus feeding being closer to raising a semi-domesticated pet and one step away from fencing them in.

Crossbows, eh, whatever. Those don't bother me, but probably because most bow hunters suck (don't practice enough) and it may help minimized wounded deer if reasonable ranges are self-imposed.

 

[Predator_SD]

Same with almost every other state out there. And yes, they changed the reg to reduce the barrier to entry for new hunters (ie “appease a certain crowd”). There were also multiple other reasons in my state and the other states Im familiar with, one of them being unequivocal data that hunting participation was declining, combined with repeated harvests below target—based on data they were looking for a way to increase harvest. My understanding of your post is that you clearly have a problem with crossbows, my entire point was about people complaining with no statement about what they want to see happen differently as far as the results of a hunting season. If the harvest is too high, there is a mechanism to correct that built in. So what is the result YOU are looking for in allowing or not allowing crossbows? Or are you just bitching about crossbows because its not how you prefer to hunt? Post #209 above is bringing data and a desired outcome. There is no data to support causation, but theres a correlation and a desired outcome that could be brought to a regulatory commission and discussed to make a change if it was warranted. So what are you bringing?

No, not crossbows. The ever more prevalent attitude in society that we need to continually lower the bar for those unwilling to put in the effort to earn what they want is what i have a problem with. Killing a deer during bow season for example.

Crossbows are simply one of the many results of this ever more prevalent attitude eroding the work ethic and resolve of entire generations of Americans.

There isn’t a fix for this as a whole. We now have parents that grew up with these ideals instilling them in their children. So the populace is becoming increasingly entitled to things once earned with each successive generation.

What it HAS resulted in which does in fact bother me, and it should you if you value bow hunting, is the death of bow hunting. Hunting with a crossbow is not bow hunting it’s crossbow hunting. And it’s replacing bow hunting at an extremely fast rate. Now, i don’t have a problem with killing a deer with a crossbow at all but i do have a problem with them replacing bow hunting altogether. So they should absolutely have a separate and much shorter season. That way those unwilling to put in the needed effort to become proficient with a bow can still use their crossbows to hunt.

If you don’t believe allowing entire generations of people brought up believing they shouldn’t have to put in much effort in anything really therefore it’s ok to use easier tools (crossbows) to kill deer during bow season please look at the data from WI. They are absolutely replacing bow kills.

Wisconsin deer harvest summary | | Wisconsin DNR

dnr.wisconsin.gov

Interestingly enough the WI DNR STILL separates Archery from Crossbow. So though they bowed to pressure from a certain demographic the powers that be in the DNR still clearly do not consider crossbows to be “Archery” or they wouldn’t have a separate tab for “Crossbow season summary” would they. At the rate it’s going in WI and as the increasingly entitled generations come of age bow hunting will be gone in my lifetime, which imo is a shame.