Are we really hunting?

[Slickhill]

If we allow Joe to use a crossbow because using a vertical bow is too much practice or too hard to master or whatever just because the F&G department wants more does killed why not just say F it and let him use a rifle? It will get more deer killed, still not more does because that’s not what Joe wants to shoot regardless of F&G’s wishing and making catchy slogans. And it’s easier plus you don’t have to use a winch to cock the darn thing.

I hear all the time in my state about how we really need to go to one buck, “so we can kill monsters”. But none of the proponents for it want to have a discussion about keeping it 2 bucks like it has been for most of my life but maybe not letting everyone use a crossbow or arrow rifle (it’s apparently a real thing that runs on compressed air and it’s legal here). Or all the 15-17 year old kids that don’t need handheld who are whacking bucks with a rifle in the early youth season and then another one during regular season. Or the scoped muzzleloaders using 209s and modern powders that make them perform better than a 45/70. Cell cams on feeders allowing guys to pattern bucks they might never have known existed 20 years ago because they didn’t get live updates from their pocket computer. Try as F&G might none of this is getting people to shoot does, because that’s not what guys want to hunt.


Maybe the guys who have issue with all the tech view it like letting someone ride a dirt bike in the 100 yard dash at the track meet.

 

[Macintosh]

there is a level of pragmatism necessary when you go from armchair quarterbacking something, to actually taking responsibility for achieving a specific outcome. I hear what you guys are saying, but those things are happening before and completely separately from crossbows. There is no world where it isnt a stretch to blame crossbows for the degradation of American society, or to think that denying people the opportunity to use a crossbow is going to somehow make a meaningful difference in restoring the American work ethic. You are taking your biases and disgruntlement with society and projecting it onto this issue with nothing to back up the connection. And, even if there is a connection, is that not the world we still have to manage our deer herds within?

If using a crossbow is a stand-in for all of our societal ills, it seems no less of a stretch to say that whining about people using a “lesser” weapon(ie a crossbow) isnt equally representative of our sense of entitlement.

Also:



Seriously. Show me with data how crossbows are actually causing a problem or hurting you. I’ll argue just as vocally against them if thats true. But you’re not illustrating a connection, all you’re doing is showing the same sense of entitlement that you are railing against, ie “my way is more pure, therefore those other people shouldnt be allowed to do it any other way”.

 

[GotDraw?]

What are your thoughts. All is legal. Whitetail deer hunting, over bait with cell cameras and a crossbow. Personally I think this going to far and not hunting, harvesting. This is night and day from when I grew up bowhunting deer, no bait, no cameras. Killing a mature hunted whitetail was HARD and required a lot of work to do it consistently. Now you dump corn, set a camera, pattern a deer, check the camera before you walk into your stand so you do not spook deer, and then kill him. To easy?

You make a point that needs further discussion-

Hunting vs Harvesting vs Porn

In Maryland, we have so many deer that they're overbrowsing in many suburban places. So many and so well socialized that you almost have to slap them on the ass to get them out of your garden.

HARVESTING-- Maryland archery season runs mid-Sept through the end of January. DNR effectively has no limit on the number of does you can harvest with archery. They want does HARVESTED, as many as possible. Over corn on private land, in public parks by archers (no bait/by approved hunters that meet accuracy capabilities). Crossbows are encouraged due to accuracy. Maximum shot range is typicallly limited to 30yds or less by regulation. I have zero problem with this type of harvesting.

HUNTING-- Modern day advantages of 300+ yard muzzleloaders ("primitive" my ass), 1000+ yard rifles, 100 yard crossbows, compound bows easily capable of 80yds. Bait, trailcams with AI to identify bucks, the evolution won't end and folks will adopt it. I hunt with a compound bow and won't point fingers.

PORN/FAIR CHASE/TROPHY HUNTING-- Here's the problem in my mind: Back when I started hunting in the 70's ANY deer down was a great day. Today, social media bragging rights and semi-professional/professional social media hunter have upped the ante so all that matters to many is killing a big "Target" buck- by any legal means. Then bragging your ass off about it and getting all chuffed that it's on your wall. Almost all of us are guilty. I know I'm proud of one big buck in particular and moose of a lifetime, both were fair chase by any definition.

TROPHY PORN -- the definition of "fair chase" from a regulatory aspect has become very wide indeed thanks to lobbyists. But even among purist hunters, defining fair chase is like defining porn, the definition is different for each hunter. Hopefully we know porn when we see it and try to avoid it. Is it shooting an elk at 1,200 yards with a rifle when the elk has zero odds of evading the "hunter", killing a deer at 300yds with a "primitive" muzzleloader, killing a deer that your cell cam just told you to go chase? All are legal in most states, but at some point you cross they line of fair chase and perhaps shouldn't brag quite so boldly.

If it's legal, its a personal decision about where the ethical line that defines hunting/fair chase becomes a bright line.

JL

 

[TWoch]

Nobody is “running the data” at a state level to prove that/extent crossbows or cell cams cause this. How could you? Illinois has the most stringent harvest reporting that I’m aware of. I think the hope is doing something about the overall decline instead of blissfully being part of the degradation. And that goes for all ungulates. The cats outta the bag with technology, so we must catch up.

 

[Lawnboi]

Nobody is “running the data” at a state level to prove that/extent crossbows or cell cams cause this. How could you? Illinois has the most stringent harvest reporting that I’m aware of. I think the hope is doing something about the overall decline instead of blissfully being part of the degradation. And that goes for all ungulates. The cats outta the bag with technology, so we must catch up.

I’ll also point out that I don’t think the states have the same stake in hunting as hunters do. They are mostly managing to make money at this point it seems.

 

[TWoch]

Glaring conflict of interest for the animals

 

[Macintosh]

Actually, there are plenty of people running that data. Its not always as granular as we’d want, but there is a lot more data than folks give credit for, and a lot more decisions are made based on data than folks think.
Also, the entire reason we have hunting the way we do, and the entire reason we have significant populations of game animals again across much of the US, is because hunting IS a funding mechanism in and of itself. Be awfully clear-eyed about the implications of dismissing that as merely “making money”. The other side of that same coin is “making habitat”, “making opportunity”, as well as “hunting providing societal value”.

 

[TWoch]

Could you share? Because Wyoming cell cams are illegal. But not Colorado. But Arizona. Wheres the data backing those decisions? Is it granular?

I might add the varying rules concerning crossbows/archery…was there data behind those decisions?

 

[Macintosh]

Did harvest rate go up, down or stay the same concurrent with cell cams being banned in AZ? That is data that Az game and fish 100% has at their fingertips. What is the game commission in AZ hearing about the reg afterward with regard to the rationale they used (ie conflict and disturbance at water holes)? This is not rocket surgery. This is merely pointing out that if you have a concrete reason for wanting something specific based on data or a specific experience, say it and provide your proposed solution and what you think it will accomplish. Because anything less is just bitching. What Im hearing is mostly a lot of bitching with nothing to back it up other than “because I dont like it”. There is a social component, if a lot of people have a specific reason for not wanting crossbows allowed during an archery season, that matters. But just because you dont like crossbows or the people that use them, is not a reason.
data is archery tags sold increasing by x% the year they were allowed for anyone, and the average harvest rate increasing by x%, and that is or isnt within our target. Every single state has that EASILY. Many have required reporting that specifies crossbow or vertical bow. Look at a trend over a few years, and there is plenty you can tease out from that. This is simple stuff that every single state has via one means or another.

Theres also a significant difference between a state like AZ with extremely limited opportunity (WAY more people who want tags than there are tags available), versus a urban mid-atlantic state with 40+ deer per sq mile that is desperate to get as many as possible off the landscape, vs just about every step in between. One states rationale may or may not hold water elsewhere.

 

[TWoch]

This is the same agency that has witnessed the decline under their own care/management. They have no causation either. And I encourage you to provide any data similar to Illinois harvest data that proves your causation. It’s a moot point. We’re arguing semantics as the obvious decline happens on their watch and our dime. Just do something for God’s sake.

It’s sportsmen, not government, that made/make hunting what it is. Illinois archery season dates and bags limits (2 bucks unlimited does) remain unchanged in last 30 years. It’s appears little is being done to address the obvious decline. Trophy quality and herd objectives shouldn’t be mutually exclusive.

 

[TWoch]

I think it’s very similar to say unit 7 or 117 in Wyoming. Limit anterled tags until anterless population are where they belong. Talk about incentivizing harvests, while still protecting trophy quality. Am I wrong thinking this about areas with overpopulation and great trophy potential?

Illinois is the same state that requires I ask permission and pay a fee to the State Police to legally possess a firearm. I can imagine limiting bucks tags shouldn’t be an issue.

 

[TWoch]

In 2016, there were 53,468 archery harvests in Illinois. 8 years later, after introduction of crossbows, harvests were at 73,605. That’s almost a 38% increase in harvest. In the same time period, firearm harvests increased 3,515 or 4.42%.

There were 205,438 archery permits sold in 2016 and 233,104 sold in 2024, and 315,030 and 280,987 firearm permits sold respectively.

To be exact there were 23,652(17.77%) more deer killed in 24 with 6,377 (1.22%) fewer permits sold. Is that granular?

Archery success rates have increased from 26 to 31.58% while firearm success has increased 25.25 to 29.57%. That’s statistically significant, especially with 500k issued.

I use cell cams, crossbows, and compounds. Plant annual, perineal, crp and burn. I take as many kids and beginners as I can , and beg people to come shoot does. We kill old age glass management bucks as well. What we don’t do is shoot 56% male deer. Doesn’t matter if you own it or not, If people can’t figure that out then change season regulations. It’s not rocket surgery.

 

[Mr. October]

I've hunted deer with shotguns, recurve bows, compound bows, rifles, and a few times with a crossbow. I hunt where it is legal to use bait but don't. We tried one year. It was actually the worse hunting year we ever had and we don't bother anymore.

I see things in the hunting world that are not my cup of tea. But I look at the numbers of hunters declining and realize that, left alone, possibly in my lifetime hunting may become a non-factor. Whether I agree or choose all legal methodologies of hunting, as long as the law is followed and we can slow the decline in hunting that isn't a bad thing.

My only wish is for people to treat deer (and all game animals) with respect. They are not reactive targets. If you shoot and draw blood it is your duty to do everything possible to find that animal. It was having a good day until you shot it. People need to make their own decisions on this stuff too. For me, if I draw blood and can't otherwise prove the animal is still alive . . that is my tag. I don't allow myself to keep flinging arrows or bullets until I managed to put something down I can find. That said, I rely on my hunting skills rather than shooting skills.

I used to shoot competitive archery and shot FITA rounds at 90 meters (before they change the format). I could shoot deer-killing sized groups at 90 meters. That doesn't mean I'm flinging arrows at deer 90 meters away. In fact, I limit my shots to distances I don't need a rangefinder for. It's a living, breathing, moving animal and I want my shot to be a gimme. I want to know I will execute that animal as quickly and humanely as possible and I wish others would strive to have those same limitations.

I see far too many questionable shots taken at game whether that be due to distance, angle, alertness of the animal, etc. Regardless of weapon, regardless of hunting technique we should be taking good shots at relaxed game. To me, that is far more important than the weapon or style of hunting people choose.

 

[GLB]

For all the guys that will use every technical advantage because it’s legal, why are they NOT in the grip and grin photos or mentioned. Drones, thermal imaging, cell cameras, crossbows, etc. where they at?
Tell the whole story

Merry Christmas!

 

[Rich M]

Heres a question for the group.

If food plots and bait are objectionable, what about planting oaks and apple trees and hunting over those? Are they also objectionable?

no rhetoric, legit question.

Fruit and nut trees, annual food plots, perennial food plots, and bait are all exactly the same.

The whole reason for them is to attract, feed, and hold deer & wildlife. If it wasnt for the deer, they would not exist.

Allowing the natural regenerative process to happen has better protein and nutrients than planted stuff. Basically brush hog every 3 yrs and you’ll have an awesome food source based off regrowth. That’s an “ez” button. Add some fertilizer and wow.

Wife and i bought some land. Planted trees, food plots, and have a spreader feeder that throws about 3# a day from October thru greenup in the spring. It’s not a lot but it helps give em carbs when they can use em. Get about 6-8 deer daily looking for a handful of yellow nuggets each. If the feeder wasnt there they’d be elsewhere instead of eating the corn and nutritious green things in the food plots.

We have more tree and plot plantings planned for 2026. Planning to convert to cattle once the deer have cwd in the area. M

The reason folks argue so strongly either way is cause that’s what they feel is best and what they are vested in.

Shot a buck out of a food plot this year but not off the feeder. Go figure. It costs money to buy corn, trees, bushes, seeds, lime, fertilizer, diesel, etc. takes weekends and vacation time to plant.

Compare that to some guy who just goes to public land and just shoots a deer or two every year without contributing to anything beyond shooting stuff. And then tells the world how bad people w bait and the various plantings are. And he probably hunts adjacent to a big corn farm. That’s where all the deer are anyway - but corn is bad for them.

Moral to the story - plant something or even just fertilize some. The critters will all thank you for years and generations to come.

 

[Rich M]

For all the guys that will use every technical advantage because it’s legal, why are they NOT in the grip and grin photos or mentioned. Drones, thermal imaging, cell cameras, crossbows, etc. where they at?
Tell the whole story

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

You are pointing at the elephant in the room.

Seems like so many folks are saying “i suck cause of xbows, cell cams, trail cams, other people, poachers, etc. etc.”

 

[TWoch]

Merry Christmas!

You are pointing at the elephant in the room.

Seems like so many folks are saying “i suck cause of xbows, cell cams, trail cams, other people, poachers, etc. etc.”

You live in Florida. Your deer population may be the most pathetic in the US. You have no frame of reference what a trophy population or management looks like, but you measure its success by dwindling trophy pictures. I think we can see where the problem lies. If harvest numbers are up 17% you’d hope for a similar increase in trophy kills as well. If there isn’t, is it because people “suck”? Only 7% of registered top 100 typical b&c bucks have been killed in the above mentioned timeframe. Numbers aren’t adding up.

Yes, people suck. Because they’re shooting too many immature bucks thinking they’re trophies.

 

[Slugz]

I support all hunting as long as it is legal. I dont have to like it or agree with it.

I do find the cross bow discussion here interesting. I was always under the impression you had to get a medical waiver to use a cross bow during archery. Feel like now Im way wrong on that and need to study up on all the subject for all states. Only people I know out here that use a cross bow is because they are old / medical condition and physically cant pull a vertical bow

Merry Christmas

 

[Mr. October]

I support all hunting as long as it is legal. I dont have to like it or agree with it.

I do find the cross bow discussion here interesting. I was always under the impression you had to get a medical waiver to use a cross bow during archery. Feel like now Im way wrong on that and need to study up on all the subject for all states. Only people I know out here that use a cross bow is because they are old / medical condition and physically cant pull a vertical bow

Merry Christmas

That used to be the case in most states and still the case in some. There was a big push from the crossbow manufacturers quite a few years ago now to legalize their products for hunting in more and more states. With declining hunter numbers, states have jumped on board. Same reason they have greatly expanded deer hunting opportunities across the board. Unfortunately hunting has become synonymous with deer hunting. Not many people do much small game or waterfowl hunting anymore.

 

[JGRaider]

I can drive from here to San Antonio and see 100+ deer dead on the side of the road via car collisions. Seems to me we need to do whatever we can to kill more of them, legally of course. I've got 5 more does to cull this weekend at my buddy's place, which will make 25 this year (and every year), mostly off of wheat fields for his cattle. Is this ok?