Are Thermal Devices Ethical For Predawn Scouting and Hiking?

[b0nes]

If your killing animals with anything other than a toothpick and a blindfold you are unethical! Too many modern advantages!

 

[b0nes]

Oh yeah! And you have to to be naked!

 

[b0nes]

Even long bow guys are using modern technology one way or another

 

[pomorski]

Before you argue about the ethics you Might want to check your states laws. I live in Minnesota and went hunting in wyoming this year. Using thermal for the aid in taking big game is illegal in both states.


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[LA Hunter]

While fair chase is subjective, this battleground tech falls outside the boundary for me. The Predator reference above is onpoint, we're not hunting Arnold SchwartzenElk....

In Colorado Im glad our commission is in front of this.

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 33. Parks and Wildlife § 33-6-127. Hunting with artificial light, night vision, or thermal imaging devices​

"...it is unlawful for a person to utilize electronic night vision equipment, electronically enhanced light-gathering optics, or thermal imaging devices as an aid in hunting..."

Need to keep reading the entire thing:

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 33. Parks and Wildlife § 33-6-127. Hunting with artificial light, night vision, or thermal imaging devices​

...​

(a) Unless otherwise provided by commission rule and except as provided in section 33-6-107 (9) for persons owning or leasing land, members of their family, or their agents, it is unlawful for a person to utilize electronic night vision equipment, electronically enhanced light-gathering optics, or thermal imaging devices as an aid in hunting or taking wildlife outside legal hunting hours according to commission rules.​

Per the above, you can use thermals during the day/within legal hunting hours.

To others, yes, the thermal scopes (monocular, bino, scope) can't see through physical objects, but if part of the heat signature is not visually blocked from view, then theoretically (I don't have first-hand experience) you can see the heat signature in between the grass blades, tree stumps, or leaves.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Anyone who thinks thermal optics are fine/ethical to use for pursuing game under the North America model of Conservation needs a serious head check.

I’ve used them elk hunting by surprise as someone I knew busted them out. It was grossly unethical, even laughable watching potatoes use them. I tried to have an open mind but nah, hard line in the sand here.

Comparing to range finders is ridiculous as they don’t help you find and hunt an animal, they help you get a more ethical kill shot in most cases.

People on this forum are also praising thermal drones for hunting. Some men have completely lost touch with this lifestyle and treat it more of a game and competition to get the last living trophy.

 

[ozyclint]

With trail cameras, scopes that provide instant ballistic information, how would this been any different?

You can't scan a hillside and instantly locate even obscured animals with those.

 

[repins05]

Where is the line drawn? Some of these lines seem common sense to me.....but obviously not to others.

Fortunately or unfortunately the State needs to specify what's right and wrong.

 

[Howdoyoulikemenow]

And guys wonder why hunters are under attack by those who would take hunting away from us? What’s next?

 

[Reburn]

Need to keep reading the entire thing:

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 33. Parks and Wildlife § 33-6-127. Hunting with artificial light, night vision, or thermal imaging devices​

...​

(a) Unless otherwise provided by commission rule and except as provided in section 33-6-107 (9) for persons owning or leasing land, members of their family, or their agents, it is unlawful for a person to utilize electronic night vision equipment, electronically enhanced light-gathering optics, or thermal imaging devices as an aid in hunting or taking wildlife outside legal hunting hours according to commission rules.​

Per the above, you can use thermals during the day/within legal hunting hours.

To others, yes, the thermal scopes (monocular, bino, scope) can't see through physical objects, but if part of the heat signature is not visually blocked from view, then theoretically (I don't have first-hand experience) you can see the heat signature in between the grass blades, tree stumps, or leaves.

Thread from 3.5 years ago bro.

How did you even find this thread.

 

[Yoder]

If it's legal I could care less.

 

[taskswap]

Need to keep reading the entire thing:

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 33. Parks and Wildlife § 33-6-127. Hunting with artificial light, night vision, or thermal imaging devices​

...​

(a) Unless otherwise provided by commission rule and except as provided in section 33-6-107 (9) for persons owning or leasing land, members of their family, or their agents, it is unlawful for a person to utilize electronic night vision equipment, electronically enhanced light-gathering optics, or thermal imaging devices as an aid in hunting or taking wildlife outside legal hunting hours according to commission rules.​

Per the above, you can use thermals during the day/within legal hunting hours.

To others, yes, the thermal scopes (monocular, bino, scope) can't see through physical objects, but if part of the heat signature is not visually blocked from view, then theoretically (I don't have first-hand experience) you can see the heat signature in between the grass blades, tree stumps, or leaves.

There's a vague bit in another section, though, that seems to imply you might be able to use a handheld device but not an I/R scope:

NOTE: SMART RIFLES are prohibited, including any firearm equipped with a target tracking system, electronically controlled, assisted or computer-linked trigger or a ballistics computer. Any firearm equipped with a scope containing a computer processor is considered to be a smart rifle.

All I/R devices contain "computer processors".

 

[LA Hunter]

Thread from 3.5 years ago bro.

How did you even find this thread.

I went to the magnifying glass symbol that has the word 'search' next to it. I typed 'thermal' and read through the most relevant threads pertaining to my curiosity to see if questions had been answered already.

No use starting a new thread and wasting others' time repeating old answers unless significant changes have taken place since then. While this is an old thread, I did not recognize any significant changes, but information that has the potential to be better understood.

 

[LA Hunter]

There's a vague bit in another section, though, that seems to imply you might be able to use a handheld device but not an I/R scope:

All I/R devices contain "computer processors".

Yes, correct and context is still relevant. That section speaks to smart rifles and how they are equipped.

So far, the legislation seems to permit legal use of thermal cameras during shooting light in CO. With that prohibition against smart rifles, I take it to make sure that you don't have a monocular that can be fitted on a rifle. Some monoculars are sold as handheld and have a Picatinny grip on the bottom so they can be attached. Other monoculars are just round and molded in a way that prevent reasonable intents to install them as a rifle scope.

 

[Sioux33]

You might as well just hunt a high fence operation, even better if they chain one up for you.

 

[taskswap]

You might as well just hunt a high fence operation, even better if they chain one up for you.

Honestly, I expect a lot of that reaction, but IMO they aren't the "cheat codes" a lot of folks think. I personally played with one on a hiking trip (I never hunted with one, even things like hogs where they're standard) and my opinion is they're moderately useful in the morning but not useful at all in the day or evening. Their ranges are not very long - most advertise "up to" 500-1000yd but practically speaking the consumer-grade options have resolutions too low to be useful past 200yds or so.

I know some folks have mentioned they're helpful picking game out of treelines but that wasn't my experience, etiher. I'm not saying that's not possible, but these things don't pick a head out of a bush. You really need the body of the animal exposed to get a clear dot worth a second glance, and their field of view is very narrow - you aren't glancing at an entire hill and saying "oh, 3 elk over there, let's take 'em!"

Here's a real-world image I took with one on that hike, for reference.



Now here's another a few minutes later. Tell me what we're looking at here (hint: it was nothing, just some sage bushes)



Now here's one where I was actually looking at three deer. Would you have guessed that's what this was, or that it was more interesting than those bushes above?



Now this is a terrible photo, I forgot to adjust my phone's camera settings. But this was taken about 10 seconds later looking at those same deer. It was still 15 minutes BEFORE what would have been legal shooting hours if it had been a hunt season, and was already already MUCH easier to see those deer with the naked eye. Even with this terrible photo you can see the dark body just right of center (no trees - I had stepped to the right just a bit to get a clearer view).



I'm not saying we shouldn't still argue the ethical considerations here. It's worth discussing. But don't think of them as easy cheat-codes, either. Maybe they'll get there, but they aren't there yet.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Anyone who thinks thermal optics are fine/ethical to use for pursuing game under the North America model of Conservation needs a serious head check.

I’ve used them elk hunting by surprise as someone I knew busted them out. It was grossly unethical, even laughable watching potatoes use them. I tried to have an open mind but nah, hard line in the sand here.

Comparing to range finders is ridiculous as they don’t help you find and hunt an animal, they help you get a more ethical kill shot in most cases.

People on this forum are also praising thermal drones for hunting. Some men have completely lost touch with this lifestyle and treat it more of a game and competition to get the last living trophy.

I don’t use one but they are not near as effective as 12x or 14x.

I watched guys swear by them and miss a ton of deer.

Work great at night on pigs and yotes but day time not so much, especially if there is any range involved

 

[PathFinder]

Honestly, I expect a lot of that reaction, but IMO they aren't the "cheat codes" a lot of folks think. I personally played with one on a hiking trip (I never hunted with one, even things like hogs where they're standard) and my opinion is they're moderately useful in the morning but not useful at all in the day or evening. Their ranges are not very long - most advertise "up to" 500-1000yd but practically speaking the consumer-grade options have resolutions too low to be useful past 200yds or so.

I know some folks have mentioned they're helpful picking game out of treelines but that wasn't my experience, etiher. I'm not saying that's not possible, but these things don't pick a head out of a bush. You really need the body of the animal exposed to get a clear dot worth a second glance, and their field of view is very narrow - you aren't glancing at an entire hill and saying "oh, 3 elk over there, let's take 'em!"

Here's a real-world image I took with one on that hike, for reference.

View attachment 866544

Now here's another a few minutes later. Tell me what we're looking at here (hint: it was nothing, just some sage bushes)

View attachment 866545

Now here's one where I was actually looking at three deer. Would you have guessed that's what this was, or that it was more interesting than those bushes above?

View attachment 866546

Now this is a terrible photo, I forgot to adjust my phone's camera settings. But this was taken about 10 seconds later looking at those same deer. It was still 15 minutes BEFORE what would have been legal shooting hours if it had been a hunt season, and was already already MUCH easier to see those deer with the naked eye. Even with this terrible photo you can see the dark body just right of center (no trees - I had stepped to the right just a bit to get a clearer view).

View attachment 866547

I'm not saying we shouldn't still argue the ethical considerations here. It's worth discussing. But don't think of them as easy cheat-codes, either. Maybe they'll get there, but they aren't there yet.

What thermal optic was this, I assume a very low grade one? Even a 35mm-384 can easily pick up big game thermal signatures from well over 1500 yards, and do it well enough to know it's an animal. They are an absurdly effective cheat code, especially on a cool, overcast day.
Thermal is an utterly unreasonable technological advantage. It should be banned for everything but wolves and coyotes.

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[repins05]

What ever you looked through is complete s**t. A 1024x768 sensor can pick out an animal at a mile or more. You can see a chipmunk at several hundred yards. They work morning and evening. If you are going to label something a cheat code hunting big game....a thermal is at the top of the list. The technology available to the general public is pretty amazing. It is just going to cost you.

My relative in Montana has thermal rifle scope to hunt coyotes. It is effective.

 

[just.mark]

It's clearly not a ethics issue but more of a supply and demand issue. How long is it going to be before a state caps maximum engagement ranges. Because you know it's comming.