AR Cartridge for Hunting

[woods89]

For varmints and smaller game, but from the OPs post, 103gr ELD-X hits that 1000ft-lbs of energy threshold just past 250yds. Of course that was with a theoretical 20in barrel and this has a 22in barrel. Reloads could probably push that slightly higher and a 400yd shot on deer and sheep would still be possible.

I personally look a lot more at velocity so if a heavier TMK/Berger/ELD will get there over 1800 fps or so, I'd be comfortable. That's a personal decision, however.
No question it would be a cool little rifle to handle in person.

 

[Wapiti1]

Thanks for the explanation on the WSSMs. This all makes sense why it isn’t more popular than it is.

Yep. Form covers it. They are the most performance you can get from the AR15 platform, but you need to understand them. For a high volume shooter, they are awful. For someone that isn't familiar with the platform, and tuning an AR, they aren't good either.

It's fun and shoots very well, but it is not a mainstream compatible family of cartridges.

Jeremy

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Looks like Howa is going to build one for you. I bet they announce it more at SHOT, but it's already listed here. It's sure got me tempted for a 4.1lb gun.

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle - Lipseys.com

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle

www.lipseys.com

I like the sound of a 4lb mini action

 

[Castle Rock]

For varmints and smaller game, but from the OPs post, 103gr ELD-X hits that 1000ft-lbs of energy threshold just past 250yds. Of course that was with a theoretical 20in barrel and this has a 22in barrel. Reloads could probably push that slightly higher and a 400yd shot on deer and sheep would still be possible.

1000 ft-lb, that is so 1970’s man, get with the program

 

[Castle Rock]

But if you really need that mythical number

 

[DoubleDown]

Looks like Howa is going to build one for you. I bet they announce it more at SHOT, but it's already listed here. It's sure got me tempted for a 4.1lb gun.

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle - Lipseys.com

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle

www.lipseys.com

Howa 1500 mini action
4.1 lb that’s A barreled action weight
4 lb 10 oz carbon fiber stock version
6 lb bare with plastic stock
I had one build by Oregun with their stock and bottom metal in 6.5 grendel. Weight should be 4 lb 12 oz, but end up with almost 5lb rifle that cost me 1300$.

Learn it that mini action options available on market don’t make sense. Better to get rifle caliber kimber if quality improved in last 5 years. Savage ultralight or lightweight. Yes savage weight extra pound that gives more stability, and extend hunting range 2-3 times.

Keep ar calibers for ar
Some custom options weight only 3.8 lb

 

[Stinky Coyote]

All of the typing on a subject you have NO real world experience on = TROLL

pot, the kettle is calling

just a regular dad with a couple kiddos coming of hunt age doing our thing for the freezer over the past 4 seasons and 10 kills documented fairly well with The Grendel, have a shat ton more hunting experience than that lol, we aren't outfitters loaning our rigs out or have endless amounts of tags like some on here seem to have availability to but we are 10 for 10 with The Grendel from several platforms over 4 seasons and 5 different Alberta big game animals...so where exactly did you learn how to read? who's the troll? oh...got any contributions here or just trying to stick up for a local stud?

p.s. and I've read the .223 thread now, took awhile but could have started there and this may have been a smoother curve haha, Form is a stud, we will have some great discussions going forward, he doesn't have to be right always though does he? how bout 99.8% right? I know I could live with that, maybe he can too?

 

[chutinlead]

Howa 1500 mini action
4.1 lb that’s A barreled action weight
4 lb 10 oz carbon fiber stock version
6 lb bare with plastic stock
I had one build by Oregun with their stock and bottom metal in 6.5 grendel. Weight should be 4 lb 12 oz, but end up with almost 5lb rifle that cost me 1300$.

Learn it that mini action options available on market don’t make sense. Better to get rifle caliber kimber if quality improved in last 5 years. Savage ultralight or lightweight. Yes savage weight extra pound that gives more stability, and extend hunting range 2-3 times.

Keep ar calibers for ar
Some custom options weight only 3.8 lb

I see on Howa's website it does show 4lb 10oz for the 6.5 Grendel and other mini actions. Still a sub 5lb gun for less than $1000. If you don't expect it to shoot past 400 and keep it to medium sized game it sounds like a winner.

 

[Tmac]

Looks like Howa is going to build one for you. I bet they announce it more at SHOT, but it's already listed here. It's sure got me tempted for a 4.1lb gun.

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle - Lipseys.com

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle

www.lipseys.com

Had not seen that. Very tempting.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I see on Howa's website it does show 4lb 10oz for the 6.5 Grendel and other mini actions. Still a sub 5lb gun for less than $1000. If you don't expect it to shoot past 400 and keep it to medium sized game it sounds like a winner.

I see MKM Machine is scanning the Howa magazines and a lot of guys pressuring them to build a more reliable magazine and make it a 10 rounder to boot. I've added my 2 cents so if anyone also wants to elevate the Howa platform then go bug MKM Machine also please. I've built a couple custom Howa's and moved away from the platform because of those stupid magazines tipping rounds down after the shot...once your confidence is gone it's gone and no good for 'hunting'. The only thing good about the Howa is the action and barrel, even the trigger will have to go as the two stage is meh but the blade feel is wrong too, too curved etc. anyway, I could bash the shite out of Howa for days as I burned a ton of cash so far. Do they shoot lights out...yup, will not argue that, tight bores, slow, but dang they shoot. Just have to ditch the stock, ditch the mag, ditch the trigger...lol....next.

I still have a cut down 22" action in the safe waiting for a Pendleton stock from Oregon one day and either his hinged bottom metal or another guy was building a cz magazine conversion bottom but going hard on these ruger American ranches with the 10 round ar magazines so it will sit in the safe for awhile yet...if mkm gets the 10 round magazine right I'll orders some parts and finish the thing and have me a nice little 18.5" barrelled sheeper in the 5-5.5 lb scoped all up range. Then I'll likely sell it as I'm just digging the clubs I've built around the RAR in MDT chassis.

 

[Axlrod]

pot, the kettle is calling

just a regular dad with a couple kiddos coming of hunt age doing our thing for the freezer over the past 4 seasons and 10 kills documented fairly well with The Grendel, have a shat ton more hunting experience than that lol, we aren't outfitters loaning our rigs out or have endless amounts of tags like some on here seem to have availability to but we are 10 for 10 with The Grendel from several platforms over 4 seasons and 5 different Alberta big game animals...so where exactly did you learn how to read? who's the troll? oh...got any contributions here or just trying to stick up for a local stud?

p.s. and I've read the .223 thread now, took awhile but could have started there and this may have been a smoother curve haha, Form is a stud, we will have some great discussions going forward, he doesn't have to be right always though does he? how bout 99.8% right? I know I could live with that, maybe he can too?

Don't take it personal. Glad you have your kids into hunting. I don't stick up for anyone and don't always agree with Form. but he gives real world experience AND asked you for specific information - which you ignored and continued blathering on. I have 2 AR's in each 6.5 GR, 6 ARC and .556, and have hunted with them all. The Op was looking for AR advise- you clearly have none. So why not start your own thread on whatever you want to say, and let the OP get some useful advise. Merry Christmas to you my northern neighbor!

 

[doverpack12]

Looks like Howa is going to build one for you. I bet they announce it more at SHOT, but it's already listed here. It's sure got me tempted for a 4.1lb gun.

It was pointed out that the other mini stalker rifles are listed as 4lbs 10oz.

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle - Lipseys.com

HOWA M1500 Mini Action 6MM ARC Rifle

www.lipseys.com

Thanks. I was talking build an ARC AR

 

[Tmac]

I have no experience with hogs or match bullets for hunting, so can offer no help there. But we have used 223/62gr and 6.5G/120gr on antelope/deer/cow elk in the Federal Fusion line to moderate range with good results. Due to regulations, only the 6.5 on elk. But I may try some match bullets next season, along with a 6ARC.

So back to a question more closely related to the OP‘s query. Relative to hogs and the 77 TMK in a 223 or 224 Valkyrie, and the various match bullets previously mentioned in 6ARC. If you have used these on hogs, will these bullets hold up well enough to penetrate the shield and lead to a quick kill, say inside 250 yards, or is a “tougher“ bullet recommended? May be trying a hog hunt and was leaning towards the 6.5G, but the OP’s question has me thinking about options.

 

[scott_co]

I have no experience with hogs or match bullets for hunting, so can offer no help there. But we have used 223/62gr and 6.5G/120gr on antelope/deer/cow elk in the Federal Fusion line to moderate range with good results. Due to regulations, only the 6.5 on elk. But I may try some match bullets next season, along with a 6ARC.

So back to a question more closely related to the OP‘s query. Relative to hogs and the 77 TMK in a 223 or 224 Valkyrie, and the various match bullets previously mentioned in 6ARC. If you have used these on hogs, will these bullets hold up well enough to penetrate the shield and lead to a quick kill, say inside 250 yards, or is a “tougher“ bullet recommended? May be trying a hog hunt and was leaning towards the 6.5G, but the OP’s question has me thinking about options.

I have seen hogs get up from shots that were slightly off with .223/5.56. From this experience, I chose a 6.5G. I don't have tons of experience with it as I just started to use it this season, but every hog I have taken so far has been DRT. The shots have ranged from 70-125 yards, and I have had very good performance using Hornandy Black 123 gr.

And deer in south TX have all been pass through shots.

So for me the Grendel is doing exactly what I bought it for.

 

[Bisley45]

I've killed a couple of deer with my 6.8 spc shooting 120sst bullets at 2550. Seems to kill all out of proportion to the light recoil. For deer and hogs to 200 yards its turning into a go-to gun. If my shots might be further...zi have more suitable options.

 

[mississippilpj]

I like 74 Grain Razor Tip if you have a 1 in 7 barrel. Hornady 64 grain HPBT is hard to beat as well

 

[Zappaman]

I didn't want to be the one to say that but another advantage for the Grendel yes and for AR discussion that's important. 16" in the Grendel mirrors the blast/efficiency of a .308 out of a 20" imo. I shoot 16" no brake or suppressor and would not want to be shorter without a can, it's got some pop.

I have a picture from another hunters Grendel kill of a perfectly mushroomed eld-m that came from a 12" AR at 320 yards with a 2200 fps launch and 1700 fps impact (790 ft/lbs) at his elevation, it was a broadside whitetail buck, through shoulder, recovered under offside hide, buck did a 40-50 yard runner. Didn't get weight of it but looks to be about 95% and peeled back to about 60% of it's original length with a nickel size frontal area. So that's where I've drawn the line for deer size game (1700 fps impact) and in my 16" barrel that gets me to 500 yards at my elevation, but will still send lead at coyotes at any distance. Reality is my fairly hard limit on big game is ~400 yards, my 420 yard doe this year was part of a double, my kid took first one at 355 and we needed the last doe for the freezer, it was last weekend of season so I grabbed the rifle and doubled up. That 1800 fps impact went through 15" and exited, drt. I'd have no issue putting that in the ribs of a moose or elk at 400.

So the info I've loosely collected on the 123 eld-m as follows.
I have a 2315 fps impact on a massive mule deer buck high shoulder from elevated ridge, caught the jacket offside and it peeled back about 75% of total length leaving 25%. If the core stayed and I had something to weigh then I'd speculate we'd have 50% retention.
I have the 2100 fps impact and recovered 81%(99.8gr) of the steeply quartering away whitetail and it peeled back 50% of original length.
The other guys 1700 fps example that mushroomed nice and looked to retain 95% weight and peeled back about 40% of it's original length leaving 60%.

So somewhere between 2100 fps (81% retention) and 1700 fps (~95% retention) the eld-m starts to hold together like a controlled expansion bullet, I'm speculating that starts above 1800 fps judging by the holes in my doe this year that exited. So until more recovered examples can be found I'd guess 2000-1900 fps is where we start seeing 90% or better weight retentions.

That's why I'm not a fan of the ARC speeds for hunting, they already 170-220 fps faster for the 108/103. They won't come into their own till beyond the typical hunting distances from most barrel lengths. If I was a long range hunter trying to max a 6mm then yes but that's not the bulk of hunters never mind 'AR' hunters. The bigger pill is where it's at. Impact velocities between 2350-1700. That's just past muzzle to 500 from a 16" Grendel running 123's (2386 muzzle-1700 at 500). Not sure what's more efficient than that, I've studied this awhile and put to use now for awhile also, only surprises have been pleasant ones.

on the 6.8 spc I had one of those also, custom asi ranch, shot a doe at 220 and few coyotes, did great, I would not stretch it like I do the Grendel, it's more of a point blank hold, deer or less, to 250 with the 110's imo, solid choice in AR if fits your needs, just falls on it's face after 250 and sd not high enough to push much past deer size game, I liked it, the Grendel just takes things to a different level with the higher bc/sd, more mass, and a little more powder behind it

I was following everything said here with a nod… up till the SPC reference where you compared a 110g load to the 123g “G” load. Given a modern SPC II chamber with a 120g SST (or 115g gold dot- what I use)… the ballistics at 300 is basically the same with the SPC or “G” out of 16-20” barrels, respectively.

The SPC may actually have the energy edge by a hair with the 120g, but it’s not worth debating when we have ballistic calculators that continue to show that well past 250 yards… same size bullet in same length barrels stay VERY close to each other. Neither is falling on its face at that distance apples to apples.

Again, not starting an argument here! If you wish to hunt past 500 yards with a Grendel, cool. I want to build one for coyotes for that purpose. But for 300 yards out (deer and pigs in my case), in a 16” barrel, using heavier bullets… flip a coin. They will both be neck and neck factory or reloaded- speed and energy.

On bullets… I never liked the lighter bullets for hunting deer or pigs either. Then when we SPC guys got the 120 SST, lots of pig hunters went to them as they do knock them down good. But they are not a bonded bullet and make a mess. As I EAT my pigs I hunt, I MUCH prefer the Federal Gold Dot 115g which opens up very well (AND holds together extremely well at ANY range, going through bone or flesh making clean kills). Nice mushroomed bullet I usually don’t find (on all but the largest pigs), most go through and leave a good blood trail (I also rarely need to follow).

 

[Castle Rock]

will these bullets hold up well enough to penetrate the shield

There is no such thing as the shield, pigs are just flesh and blood like any animal
I have killed a couple of thousand of them including some pretty big ones

 

[Tmac]

Call it tissue or whatever, but every source I’ve seen describes that layer as being up to a couple inches thick. Most called it a shield. Gristle maybe? It’s said to be on boars. Would seem to be something one would consider in bullet selection.

Are you saying that it does not exist, is not a concern, does not create a noticeable impediment to a softer bullet, or what?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Don't take it personal. Glad you have your kids into hunting. I don't stick up for anyone and don't always agree with Form. but he gives real world experience AND asked you for specific information - which you ignored and continued blathering on. I have 2 AR's in each 6.5 GR, 6 ARC and .556, and have hunted with them all. The Op was looking for AR advise- you clearly have none. So why not start your own thread on whatever you want to say, and let the OP get some useful advise. Merry Christmas to you my northern neighbor!

Back at ya southern neighbor. Don’t hang the messenger on a technicality as then both Form and I may need to get hung. Form didn’t mention once about how the cartridge would perform better in an ar specifically, so neither did I because it was obvious he was stating why the cartridge was better than the other cartridge and it was all about perceived ballistic advantages in the air and terminally. I responded in kind staying focused on ‘hunting’. The same case with less taper or larger bullets always seems to win feed wars in auto-loaders and more zing from shorter barrel wars but those arguments can be had by others...with AR’s, like you. As for discussing the merits of the two Grendels ballistically relating to ‘hunting’ I have a dog in this fight. Above all that I felt ALL info and perspectives needed to be in the thread so people can choose what’s best for them. For straight hunting 6.5 Grendel is king as 99% of all hunting will land under 500 and also AR guys don’t seem to be the ones stretching the prs or long range hunting and use bolt actions instead, if it’s blended asks like mix in prs, or ‘long range hunting’ and the Arc cartridge then shines due to specific ballistics gains at those extended distances. Those are niche asks and Bulk of hunters aren’t gonna be needing more than 5-600 so 6.5. I’m not wrong and we are splitting hairs. These two are the most efficient uses of a 30 gr of powder on the planet imo (in terms of commercially available factory offerings and ammo) so now that all info on table guys can more clearly see what might better suit them.