AR-15 10 Shot Group Size?

[NorthIdahoDude]

Since we're posting gun and group pic's...

You can have a pretty good mix of both accuracy and reliability if you mess around with a bunch of different AR's and kieep the ones that come out really nice. This is a 15 round group at 50 yards with my "if I had to trust my life to it" AR. It's a me-built 14.5 inch pin+weld Ballistic Advantage 'hanson' pencil barrel (the "premium" version with 223 Wylde chamber), BA rollstamped Aero M4E1 upper/lower and handguard, very well broken in PSA nickel/teflon trigger group, and as you can see, remarkably well balanced. Weighs about 7lbs all-in with a full 30 round mag/6lbs dry weight.

Ammo is handloaded 69 grain Nosler match bullets over as much Varget as would reasonably fit in LC11 brass with CCI #41 mil-spec primers.

Note: I had swapped out the 1x prisim for a 4.5-14 scope the day I shot that group, is why it's not dialed for POI = bullseye. I can't shoot that tight with the 1x prism it normally wears.

 

[danhuntingmi]

I wouldn't confuse the design of a specific gun designed for combat with the capability of the ar platform. On the bench, unless you're a benchrest competitor shooting 0.1 inch groups, it really comes down to the barrel and the loads.

My pa-10 I just got done shooting 11 three shot groups all under 1 moa with an average group size of 0.6 moa.

Off the bench, the lock time of the ar going to get you.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

A lot of great info here! Thanks, All!

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

You're speaking some solid truths about ARs. And not to detract from any of it in saying this: There aren't very many sub-MOA shooters out there, or sub-MOA rifles at all, let alone ARs.

Further, if there's anything I learned from the thread I posted above, after giving it both careful thought reflecting on my own decades of shooting, and then going out and applying the content in volume, it's this:

1) Ten-round groups used in determining a gun's accuracy are illusions at best, internet lies at worst, with most falling in-between by guys cherry-picking what they post.

2) 30 round groups are the absolute minimum I'll trust anymore in determining a gun's inherent accuracy. I'll adjust zero with a 10-round group, but that's all it's good for - and that only comes after proofing a gun's genuine cone of fire with a given load.

3) A genuine sub-MOA AR is one of the rarest guns on the planet - for all of reasons you've mentioned in your posts above, plus more. They exist, but what it takes to make them that way is expensive, along with uncommon competencies in smithing.

4) Most guys don't know what their own inherent MOA/accuracy is as a shooter, because they've literally never even held a genuinely sub-MOA gun, shooting sub-MOA ammo, in conditions that allow for sub-MOA shooting - let alone spent much time behind one.

5) Very, very few people are legitimately sub-MOA shooters. Anyone can randomly throw a 5 or 10-round sub-MOA group with enough practice and volume. But people who are consistently, on-demand sub-MOA shooters are as rare as an honest politician.

6) Finding both a shooter and an AR that are consistently sub-MOA is one of the rarest combos in the rifle-shooting world. They exist, I've witnessed it, and they're generally current or former competitors or professionals having done that kind of work full time - with highly specialized, crafted ARs.

Anyone consistently getting 2-MOA 30-round groups with any AR, especially an off-the-shelf one, is doing well.

Truths. The one thing I would adjust slightly though, is the lack of guns that are truly sub-MOA is a big part of the reason there aren't very sub-MOA shooters. Many years ago, a guy who built bench guns for a living laughed at me when I made a comment about my shooting skills being maybe 1.5 MOA on a good day, and he said basically something to the effect of "You shoot better than you think you can, you just don't have a gun that shoots that well. If I handed you one of my 3/8 MOA bench guns, you probably couldn't shoot 3/8 MOA with it like I can, but I'd be shocked if you shot more than 3/4 MOA with it, and probably closer to 1/2." I am convinced he was correct, based on the fact that I have/have had some guns that I can just kind of wave the crosshairs near the bullseye and send it, and drill all-rounds-touching groups with, but the other 99.9% of the guns I've ever owned do well if i send a 1.25 or so MOA group with them.