Anyone paying attention to Michigan?

[dr.mooseknuckles]

This thread is making me laugh so hard!

The presence of antlers doesn't add inches to your dick. Shoot more does. Antler point restrictions are dumb in that there are plenty of mature bucks with weak genetics that don't meet the APR criteria to be harvested, thus they get to continue breeding.

One buck rule, in general, would make folks (read seasoned adults) be more selective. That's how Kentucky does it, and many people travel there to hunt. Again, antlers are hard to cook, and don't add inches to your pecker. Let them get bigger and thin the doe herd out. If you really want to get super strict, minimum main beam length restrictions and/or inside spread limit. SOAs in AL are 18 inch main beam length, and/or 16 inch inside spread.

Anecdotal for sure, but on our family 1k acre property in AL, one buck rule per member, unless confronted with the rare situation of seeing a bigger buck than the first killed. No doe limits. We are seeing much better quality with our bucks, as well as an increase in number of mature bucks seen on camera. Our doe body weights have also gone up, which will help contribute to better buck genetics in the long term (50% of genetics come from the doe, dontcha know). We'll probably never get our ratio ideal. Three mature bucks and ten does this season

 

[Steve O]

This thread is making me laugh so hard!

The presence of antlers doesn't add inches to your dick. Shoot more does. Antler point restrictions are dumb in that there are plenty of mature bucks with weak genetics that don't meet the APR criteria to be harvested, thus they get to continue breeding.

One buck rule, in general, would make folks (read seasoned adults) be more selective. That's how Kentucky does it, and many people travel there to hunt. Again, antlers are hard to cook, and don't add inches to your pecker. Let them get bigger and thin the doe herd out. If you really want to get super strict, minimum main beam length restrictions and/or inside spread limit. SOAs in AL are 18 inch main beam length, and/or 16 inch inside spread.

Anecdotal for sure, but on our family 1k acre property in AL, one buck rule per member, unless confronted with the rare situation of seeing a bigger buck than the first killed. No doe limits. We are seeing much better quality with our bucks, as well as an increase in number of mature bucks seen on camera. Our doe body weights have also gone up, which will help contribute to better buck genetics in the long term (50% of genetics come from the doe, dontcha know). We'll probably never get our ratio ideal. Three mature bucks and ten does this season

There is 1/3 of the lower peninsula that needs the does thinned. That is where all the private land is. The rest of the state is a tinkle of what it once was. The big buck hunters pushing thier agenda are the ones in that private sector. They hunt in a nirvana, off limits to the rest of the low lifes that eke out our existence hunting the public. Their herd reduction plans work incredibly well where the public takes great advantage of them but not so well on the private land where only they are responsible for controlling the deer population on. A big pile of hypocrisy is what I see from them…

 

[Todd10]

This thread is making me laugh so hard!

The presence of antlers doesn't add inches to your dick. Shoot more does. Antler point restrictions are dumb in that there are plenty of mature bucks with weak genetics that don't meet the APR criteria to be harvested, thus they get to continue breeding.

One buck rule, in general, would make folks (read seasoned adults) be more selective. That's how Kentucky does it, and many people travel there to hunt. Again, antlers are hard to cook, and don't add inches to your pecker. Let them get bigger and thin the doe herd out. If you really want to get super strict, minimum main beam length restrictions and/or inside spread limit. SOAs in AL are 18 inch main beam length, and/or 16 inch inside spread.

Anecdotal for sure, but on our family 1k acre property in AL, one buck rule per member, unless confronted with the rare situation of seeing a bigger buck than the first killed. No doe limits. We are seeing much better quality with our bucks, as well as an increase in number of mature bucks seen on camera. Our doe body weights have also gone up, which will help contribute to better buck genetics in the long term (50% of genetics come from the doe, dontcha know). We'll probably never get our ratio ideal. Three mature bucks and ten does this season

Anecdotal for sure, but on our family 1k acre property in AL, one buck rule per member, UNLESS confronted with the rare situation of seeing a bigger buck than the first killed.

Sounds like the current 2 buck rule in Michigan where only 3-7% of hunters shoot a second buck. A lot of hunters would love to harvest more doe if they could only access the private property they live on. I do agree with you though that a lot of hunters are mainly interested in antlers unfortunately.

 

[SirChooCH]

I didn't scroll thu nine pages to see if this is posted:

Ep. 1033: The Case for a One Buck Rule with Brent Rudolph | MeatEater Podcasts

This week on the show Mark is discussing the case for a one buck limit (currently proposed in Michigan), and joining him is Brent Rudolph, the deer, elk, and moose specialist for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. Connect with Mark Kenyon, Jake Hofer, and MeatEater Mark Kenyon on...

www.themeateater.com

This was a good listen. Always want to hear from our actual biologists and what going on verse facebook commenters.

I heard OBT is for sure but without the added APR. Fall 2026 or starting 2027 up in the air still.
OP have any insights into what's actually being passed or not? Seemed in the loop from previous posts.

 

[LostArra]

I didn't scroll thu nine pages to see if this is posted:

https://www.themeateater.com/listen...e-for-a-one-buck-rule-with-brent-rudolph[/URL

I had not listened to this when I posted it.
I apologize to all.

Kenyon and Brent Rudolph both hired Kamala Harris's speech writer.
It takes 5 minutes of word salad for Kenyon to ask a yes/no question. Rudolph responds with his own word salad for another 5 minutes. Sorry guys.

This should have been a 15 minute podcast. Please shoot a doe.

 

[SirChooCH]

I just saw posted by some of the guys pushing OBT that it's off the table. They are moving forward with an "earn a second buck" so 2 buck system starting in 2027.

No changes to the UP.

Doesn't say anything about any of the other changes...

 

[UPThunderbolt]

I’ll assume your observations in the UP are accurate. APR’s, OBR and increased doe harvest wouldn’t change anything. There’s hunters across the country that don’t take care of their game properly, however, I believe a majority of hunters do it right. Ultimately, I would like to see hunters working together for what’s best for our deer herd. Judging or shaming hunters for the size of deer they shoot won’t further that objective.

I’m sorry Todd, please don’t assume Nut’s observations are accurate. They are not. The Upper Peninsula covers 17,000 square miles. There are approximately 50,000 to 60,000 Resident Yoopers who hunt whitetails. I guarantee you that Nut has never traveled the length and width of the Peninsula and documented that “most” the deer are left hanging in the sun for two weeks. How would he even know? Furthermore, Nut claims that “everyone and I mean everyone” whines…. SERIOUSLY? I highly doubt that Nut knows even 1% (500-600) of the resident Yooper hunters and yet he’s going to make that statement?

I was going to let his statements go, but this is disrespectful slanderous garbage. Are there some slobs up here? Sure. There are slobs everywhere. But, to cast that dispersion on all of us is nonsense.

Happy Mother’s Day to all of your Moms and Wives.

 

[Todd10]

I’m sorry Todd, please don’t assume Nut’s observations are accurate. They are not. The Upper Peninsula covers 17,000 square miles. There are approximately 50,000 to 60,000 Resident Yoopers who hunt whitetails. I guarantee you that Nut has never traveled the length and width of the Peninsula and documented that “most” the deer are left hanging in the sun for two weeks. How would he even know? Furthermore, Nut claims that “everyone and I mean everyone” whines…. SERIOUSLY? I highly doubt that Nut knows even 1% (500-600) of the resident Yooper hunters and yet he’s going to make that statement?

I was going to let his statements go, but this is disrespectful slanderous garbage. Are there some slobs up here? Sure. There are slobs everywhere. But, to cast that dispersion on all of us is nonsense.

Happy Mother’s Day to all of your Moms and Wives.

No need to be sorry. My assumption was for the sake of argument. I agree his assumptions are a bunch of BS. It’s hard to take his opinion seriously and it doesn’t help address any issues Michigan might have.
I’ll second “Happy Mother’s Day to everyone’s Mothers and Wives!

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

No need to be sorry. My assumption was for the sake of argument. I agree his assumptions are a bunch of BS. It’s hard to take his opinion seriously and it doesn’t help address any issues Michigan might have.
I’ll second “Happy Mother’s Day to everyone’s Mothers and Wives!

Sure thing. While my experience may be anecdotal, there's nearly 50 years of it from one corner of the U.P. to another. Yes, I have hunted (and fished) it top to bottom and east to west. I hunt and fish over 150 days a year. I have also hunted whitetails in 22 other states and provinces, owning property in 4.

If I am wrong, there's plenty of big bucks in the U.P. The buck to doe ratio and age classes are optimized. The entire culture of hunting is not centered around cheap beer (and weed), full blown concerts at deer camps, and Yoopers can tell the difference between a wolf and a coyote.

Herd health is governed by hunter behavior first and foremost, and hunter behavior here is the worst anywhere whitetails walk. Knowledge of whitetails and their habitat needs are the worst across the whitetail range as well. In 1950 I suspect that was very different, but hunting the U.P. has been reduced to a short sit over a bait pile for generations now.

The Yooper caricatures depicted by Eino and Toivo and Da Yoopers are not fringe, they are mainstream and for good reason.

 

[UPThunderbolt]

Sure thing. While my experience may be anecdotal, there's nearly 50 years of it from one corner of the U.P. to another. Yes, I have hunted (and fished) it top to bottom and east to west. I hunt and fish over 150 days a year. I have also hunted whitetails in 22 other states and provinces, owning property in 4.

If I am wrong, there's plenty of big bucks in the U.P. The buck to doe ratio and age classes are optimized. The entire culture of hunting is not centered around cheap beer (and weed), full blown concerts at deer camps, and Yoopers can tell the difference between a wolf and a coyote.

Herd health is governed by hunter behavior first and foremost, and hunter behavior here is the worst anywhere whitetails walk. Knowledge of whitetails and their habitat needs are the worst across the whitetail range as well. In 1950 I suspect that was very different, but hunting the U.P. has been reduced to a short sit over a bait pile for generations now.

The Yooper caricatures depicted by Eino and Toivo and Da Yoopers are not fringe, they are mainstream and for good reason.

Now that we’ve put your earlier statements to rest, I believe you’ve brought up a couple thoughts that do warrant further discussion.

Herd health is not governed first and foremost by hunter behavior, that distinction belongs to ecological and climatic factors. Buck age structure (which is not the same as herd health), however, is highly impacted by Hunter behavior. You are also correct in that the vast majority of Yooper hunters ( but not all of us) have moved to bait/blind which does increase buck vulnerability. I also agree that in making this shift, other hunting skills have eroded over time. That said, this is not the only factor that renders bucks easier to kill and thereby contributes to the age structure reduction.

You brought up the 1950s and I glad you did. During the decade of the 1940s, 55% of the bucks harvested in the UP were 3.5 years old or older. Fifteen percent were 5.5 years old and older. The DNR no longer collects age data. But, In the finals years, 2010s, of collecting that data, it showed that approximately 50% of the UP bucks harvested were 1.5 years old, about 30% were 2.5, 15% 3.5 and 5% were 4.5 year and older. From 1950 through modern times there have been fluctuations but largely the number of hunters have remained pretty much the same. So, what has changed? Let’s make a list. This will be a good start, but I’m sure thoughtful folks will identify things I miss.

-Telescopic sights and more accurate rifles. In the ‘40s most hunted with iron-sighted lever actions. You could not see spike antlers at 100 yards. Nor could you accurately shoot much further than that.
-Warmer clothes
-archer equipment has advanced from recurve/long bows to compounds and crossbows with telescopic sights.
- muzzle season was initiated as a primitive sidelock season, now it is a scoped singleshot rifle.
-bait
-enclosed heated blinds
-elevated stands
-trail cameras
-gps, folks are now less fearful of getting lost
-increased vehicular access (ORVs).

I don’t see anything in the above list that reduces buck vulnerability/harvest. Many of the changes that make it easier to harvest a buck occurred at the request of the hunting community. So, I agree with you that this is a discussion worth having. Is shutting down seasons the appropriate response to technological advances or would we be better off limiting the tools.

Now, I’m going to push back on you on the Eino- Toivo Statement. It is inaccurate and unfair. You don’t see any of the Yoopers on this thread slamming you for being a Troll and all the stereotypes that come with that. How about we stay away from personal attacks and debate issues that really matter?

Thank you

 

[Steve O]

Now that we’ve put your earlier statements to rest, I believe you’ve brought up a couple thoughts that do warrant further discussion.

Herd health is not governed first and foremost by hunter behavior, that distinction belongs to ecological and climatic factors. Buck age structure (which is not the same as herd health), however, is highly impacted by Hunter behavior. You are also correct in that the vast majority of Yooper hunters ( but not all of us) have moved to bait/blind which does increase buck vulnerability. I also agree that in making this shift, other hunting skills have eroded over time. That said, this is not the only factor that renders bucks easier to kill and thereby contributes to the age structure reduction.

You brought up the 1950s and I glad you did. During the decade of the 1940s, 55% of the bucks harvested in the UP were 3.5 years old or older. Fifteen percent were 5.5 years old and older. The DNR no longer collects age data. But, In the finals years, 2010s, of collecting that data, it showed that approximately 50% of the UP bucks harvested were 1.5 years old, about 30% were 2.5, 15% 3.5 and 5% were 4.5 year and older. From 1950 through modern times there have been fluctuations but largely the number of hunters have remained pretty much the same. So, what has changed? Let’s make a list. This will be a good start, but I’m sure thoughtful folks will identify things I miss.

-Telescopic sights and more accurate rifles. In the ‘40s most hunted with iron-sighted lever actions. You could not see spike antlers at 100 yards. Nor could you accurately shoot much further than that.
-Warmer clothes
-archer equipment has advanced from recurve/long bows to compounds and crossbows with telescopic sights.
- muzzle season was initiated as a primitive sidelock season, now it is a scoped singleshot rifle.
-bait
-enclosed heated blinds
-elevated stands
-trail cameras
-gps, folks are now less fearful of getting lost
-increased vehicular access (ORVs).

I don’t see anything in the above list that reduces buck vulnerability/harvest. Many of the changes that make it easier to harvest a buck occurred at the request of the hunting community. So, I agree with you that this is a discussion worth having. Is shutting down seasons the appropriate response to technological advances or would we be better off limiting the tools.

Now, I’m going to push back on you on the Eino- Toivo Statement. It is inaccurate and unfair. You don’t see any of the Yoopers on this thread slamming you for being a Troll and all the stereotypes that come with that. How about we stay away from personal attacks and debate issues that really matter?

Thank you

I wish there were a “standing ovation” emoji here.

Excellent.

 

[Wiscgunner]

I am really interested in why people feel the deer herd is down and if that simply correlates to the ban on baiting making deer visibility more limited.

 

[mi650]

I am really interested in why people feel the deer herd is down and if that simply correlates to the ban on baiting making deer visibility more limited.

Yea, the ban on baiting, wink wink, nudge nudge... It's still for sale everywhere, and still used everywhere. The DNR DGAS.

Probably 4 or 5 years ago, the head deer biologist from t he DNR was on Michigan Out-of-Doors, and he basically confirmed as much. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who saw the episode.

 

[UPThunderbolt]

I wish there were a “standing ovation” emoji here.

Excellent.

Thanks Steve

 

[UPThunderbolt]

I am really interested in why people feel the deer herd is down and if that simply correlates to the ban on baiting making deer visibility more limited.

For the Upper Peninsula, baiting is still legal and the deer numbers are down. The length of time in which we have deep snow is the primary factor that drives the level of winter mortality. The past 25 years have contained more winters with long periods of deep snow than did the prior 25 years. More recently, 2023 was a very tough winter in which we had deep snow into mid April (at my camp we still had 3 feet of snow on the level on April 10). When that happens, we see a high level of mortality in deer born the previous spring. Additionally, there is a significant level of still births and and neonatal mortality with new born fawns. As such we basically lose two years of reproduction. Unfortunately, this past winter was equally difficult. At a time, when one hopes that the population will rebound, it got hit again. I would expect deer observation rates and antler development to be further reduced in the 2026 hunting season.