Anyone get a bad batch of Blackhorn 209 powder

[Idaholewis]

Those World Championship shoots you're mentioning, are ONLY for black powder shooters and traditional rifles or, BPRC's. There is no such thing for modern inline rifles, short of the NRA Championship shoot, which by the way is only a week or so away.
Mark my words...……… black won't hold a candle to the BH shooters, who will end up NRA Champions again. Best and most consistently accurate propellant on the range.

As for ELR, there are guys out west that have been shooting BH209 to 1,000yds and well beyond for a number of years and, are very good at it. I'm told by one of them, that next year they are going to push it to a mile (1,760yds).

Next bottle someone gets that they CLAIM it was stored and handled properly, used in a firearm with a breech plug designed to shoot it, used the proper loading procedures and followed Western's directions and it won't fire properly, send that bottle to me.

They HAVE BEEN Shooting 1 mile with Black Powder (BPCR) and OPEN sights for Several years now. Kenny Wasserburger, They have a Shoot called “The Wasserburger Mile” Basically all they are doing is Trying to Hit a VERY LARGE Target (You can’t hit what you Can’t see, unless it’s an accident) But just the fact that they do Hit it at 1,760 Yards (1 Mile) with OPEN/PEEP sights and Blackpowder is pretty Darn Cool.

A modern inline like my BONE STOCK Knight Mountaineer would be no problem if i had enough elevation to get there, The Rifle is PLENTY Accurate with my own Poured Paper Patched Bullets With a Custom such as your “DUNAMIS” 1 Mile Should be SLEEZY EASY

 

[Idaholewis]

Accuracy wise with Real Blackpowder, Think about Lee Shaver’s above, 2 Time World Champion, and NUMEROUS other Titles/Wins. Lee put 5 Shots in 8 inches at 1,000 Yards, and the most amazing part, he did it with OPEN/PEEP Sights. Guy’s like Shaver’s and Gullo Above Shoot MOA on a Fairly Regular basis to 7-800 Yards with REAL BLACKPOWDER, I have spoke with them Several times about it.

So yea, A High Magnification Scoped inline, especially a Custom Built Rifle such as you Have Should be RIDICULOUSLY Easy compared to what these Guy’s above HAVE BEEN doing all along With REAL BLACKPOWDER and OPEN SIGHTS.

 

[ENCORE]

Accuracy wise with Real Blackpowder, Think about Lee Shaver’s above, 2 Time World Champion, and NUMEROUS other Titles/Wins. Lee put 5 Shots in 8 inches at 1,000 Yards, and the most amazing part, he did it with OPEN/PEEP Sights. Guy’s like Shaver’s and Gullo Above Shoot MOA on a Fairly Regular basis to 7-800 Yards with REAL BLACKPOWDER, I have spoke with them Several times about it.

So yea, A High Magnification Scoped inline, especially a Custom Built Rifle such as you Have Should be RIDICULOUSLY Easy compared to what these Guy’s above HAVE BEEN doing all along With REAL BLACKPOWDER and OPEN SIGHTS.

No one can argue with the CARTRIDGE shooters and the top shooters in the field, EXCEPT that ...…… BPCR shooters are now experimenting with BH209 in CARTRIDGES and finding much better consistency and equal to or much better accuracy.

But...……… ANYONE associated with BPCR shooting, WILL do everything in their power to keep them from competing with BH209. That...……. is the sad part. They know what happened at the NMLRA.

Over 4,000,000 muzzleloader hunters is the estimate in America, with 3,600,00 of them shooting modern inline rifles. The percentage of those with modern inline rifles still shooting blackpowder was not indicated, but the estimate was extremely low.

Facts are, a rifle designed to shoot BH209, will easily compete and outshoot rifles using blackpowder. But herein lies another issue the "holy black" boys invented, anyone shooting BH209 is limited to the charge they may use in competition. Not because the rifle won't handle the charge, its because its more consistent, higher velocity and better bullets are available. Give the boys you mention a modern inline rifle capable of shooting BH209, give them the time to find the DOPE with the rifle, and they'll completely make the black they've been shooting look like junk.

 

[PAhunter58]

Its kinda funny watching (reading) Encore & Idaholewis go back and forth in multiple different forums. Yes we all understand Lewis had a bad experience with BH209, we got it. Both guys are passionate about their beliefs. But Lewis you're comparing Apples & Oranges. You go shoot black until your hearts content. Buy the time your done talking I'm guessing you'll be smashing iron plates out to 2-3000 yards. Encore, though got my vote. I've been shooting muzzleloaders all my life, starting way back in PA when they first started allowing primitive flintlocks. I've shot it all from black, pellets and loose. This day an age, an inline with the right breech, correct primers, good bullets seated correctly and shooting BH209 is better, cleaner, more accurate than anything I have ever seen. I will say this, the only time I have ever not have BH209 go off, is when the primer failed. And that happened twice in 4 years of shooting BH, probably close to a 1000 times. Is it possible to get a bad batch of BH, I guess anything's possible. But I've never had an issue. And I'm guessing Encore is right, something else was amiss. Anyways, you guys keep up keeping me entertained. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful. U guys are two really passionate MO-FLETCH"S

 

[ENCORE]

Its kinda funny watching (reading) Encore & Idaholewis go back and forth in multiple different forums. Yes we all understand Lewis had a bad experience with BH209, we got it. Both guys are passionate about their beliefs. But Lewis you're comparing Apples & Oranges. You go shoot black until your hearts content. Buy the time your done talking I'm guessing you'll be smashing iron plates out to 2-3000 yards. Encore, though got my vote. I've been shooting muzzleloaders all my life, starting way back in PA when they first started allowing primitive flintlocks. I've shot it all from black, pellets and loose. This day an age, an inline with the right breech, correct primers, good bullets seated correctly and shooting BH209 is better, cleaner, more accurate than anything I have ever seen. I will say this, the only time I have ever not have BH209 go off, is when the primer failed. And that happened twice in 4 years of shooting BH, probably close to a 1000 times. Is it possible to get a bad batch of BH, I guess anything's possible. But I've never had an issue. And I'm guessing Encore is right, something else was amiss. Anyways, you guys keep up keeping me entertained. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful. U guys are two really passionate MO-FLETCH"S

I'll just say this……… I love ol' Idaholewis and I'll tell you why. He LOVES muzzleloading just as I love muzzleloading. We just have different opinions about a couple things, one being propellants. He has a lot of experience in his specific field and I do read his posts and enjoy watching his videos.
I've been shooting these things since I got my first muzzleloader in 1973 and been hooked on shooting them since day one. A muzzleloader is my choice for hunting, regardless of rather CF's are legal. Its as addicting to me as meth would be to a meth head.
I love shooting long range, but I would rather shoot at something the size of a dime vs a steel gong. Although it is extreme fun to hear that bullet strike steel.

So although we may not agree in the case of propellants, we're brothers in muzzloader shooting.

 

[Kimber22]

So what happened at the NMLRA?

 

[ENCORE]

So what happened at the NMLRA?

Its currently going on I believe this week.
I seen one photo of a young lady that had a really nice 500yd target. IIRC 47-1X

 

[Idaholewis]

I'll just say this……… I love ol' Idaholewis and I'll tell you why. He LOVES muzzleloading just as I love muzzleloading. We just have different opinions about a couple things, one being propellants. He has a lot of experience in his specific field and I do read his posts and enjoy watching his videos.
I've been shooting these things since I got my first muzzleloader in 1973 and been hooked on shooting them since day one. A muzzleloader is my choice for hunting, regardless of rather CF's are legal. Its as addicting to me as meth would be to a meth head.
I love shooting long range, but I would rather shoot at something the size of a dime vs a steel gong. Although it is extreme fun to hear that bullet strike steel.

So although we may not agree in the case of propellants, we're brothers in muzzloader shooting.

Well ENCORE You and i have been on few forums together for a few years now and this is the Only thing we have ever really disagreed on, That’s not to bad i guess

No doubt If i were to go back and play with BH209 again I would know how to make it Work, But i am not willing to Change my Proven stuff to Make BH209 work for me. Even if i were to go back and play with BH i would never fully Trust it, especially on a Hunt of Mine, after seeing Bullets Roll out of my Barrel From the Primer Going off, To think that a 209 Shotgun Primer can Go off STRAIGHT Through a Charge of BH209 and NOT ignite it due to “Not Enough Compression” BLOWS MY MIND??? Or Partially ignite, Start n Stop, I find that UNREAL, and always will. When i pull the Trigger with Swiss Real Blackpowder it’s GONE Immediately, It doesn’t matter what kind of Bullet, Wad, Compression, Etc.

I shoot Big Lead, Western Powders does NOT even Recommend the use of Lead, Conical Bullets with Their BH209, Blackhorn 209 Powder is Simply not a Fit for my needs.
https://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/



This really goes back to the Beginning of The first BH209 Hangfire Thread, Where i say “Shoot the Powder that works Best for you”

 

[Idaholewis]

All the "proper" ignition systems used in a Knight rifle, Encore, CVA Accura V2 etc. rifles (w/BH209 breech plug), and customs, WILL ignite BH reliably and consistently, and with a bullet that is loaded with anywhere from 10 to 20# force, some with and some without a wad.

Here you say a Loading Force of 10 to 20#

But here you are Saying 105# of Loading Force??? HOLY NUTSACK BATMAN! Why the DRASTIC Change of heart?

 

[ENCORE]

Here you say a Loading Force of 10 to 20#

But here you are Saying 105# of Loading Force??? HOLY NUTSACK BATMAN! Why the DRASTIC Change of heart?

Lets get this straight now...……… 10 to 20# of force is for pushing a land riding bullet down the barrel to the propellant.

105# of bullet SEATING FORCE...…… the force applied to seat the bullet on the propellant. A hard thump, measured with precision equipment very few people own and much less use, or know how to use. Bullet seating force is clearly mentioned.

 

[Idaholewis]

Lets get this straight now...……… 10 to 20# of force is for pushing a land riding bullet down the barrel to the propellant.

105# of bullet SEATING FORCE...…… the force applied to seat the bullet on the propellant. A hard thump, measured with precision equipment very few people own and much less use, or know how to use. Bullet seating force is clearly mentioned.

So 10 to 20# Of continual force on a “Land Riding” Bullet is Just to get it Down the Bore to the powder? “Bullet Resistance to bore”

Now that the Bullet has been pushed down and is sitting on top of the Powder Charge, Is this where you are giving it 105# of Seating Force on top of the Powder? And I assume you are doing this with your Custom made Force Scale?

 

[Idaholewis]

Lets get this straight now...……… 10 to 20# of force is for pushing a land riding bullet down the barrel to the propellant.

105# of bullet SEATING FORCE...…… the force applied to seat the bullet on the propellant. A hard thump, measured with precision equipment very few people own and much less use, or know how to use. Bullet seating force is clearly mentioned.

Where is the 105# of Force here?

 

[ENCORE]

So 10 to 20# Of continual force on a “Land Riding” Bullet is Just to get it Down the Bore to the powder? “Bullet Resistance to bore”

Now that the Bullet has been pushed down and is sitting on top of the Powder Charge, Is this where you are giving it 105# of Seating Force on top of the Powder? And I assume you are doing this with your Custom made Force Scale?

With LAND RIDING BULLETS, no sabot, no paper patching, bare bones bullet, I want them to push down a CLEAN (as taken from the safe) BARREL at 20# when shooting BH209. Note: smokeless is less in a fouled bore, but that's a whole different subject.

When the bullet seats on the propellant, a 2 handed THUMP. That 2 handed thump when measured with dedicated precision force gage, averages a measured 105#.

Now I'll help confuse you even further
If I'm shooting a saboted bullet, I want that sabot/bullet combination to load, or rather smoothly push down the barrel at a range of 30 to 36#. Then seat the bullet with a 2 handed HARD THUMP, again when measured with a dedicated precision force gage, the seating force measures 105# average.

In other words I seat my bullets, regardless if they are land riders, sabots, or even shooting smokeless in my custom...……… HARD.
It compresses the propellant and the bullet will remain in place at minimum with the forces required to load (push) it down the barrel.

Yes, all my force testing is done with precision equipment I used prior to retirement. I'm a retired Industrial Ergonomist. I have measured tens of thousands of forces, understand that there's one right way and every other way gives skewed results or is wrong.

 

[Idaholewis]

With LAND RIDING BULLETS, no sabot, no paper patching, bare bones bullet, I want them to push down a CLEAN (as taken from the safe) BARREL at 20# when shooting BH209. Note: smokeless is less in a fouled bore, but that's a whole different subject.

When the bullet seats on the propellant, a 2 handed THUMP. That 2 handed thump when measured with dedicated precision force gage, averages a measured 105#.

Now I'll help confuse you even further
If I'm shooting a saboted bullet, I want that sabot/bullet combination to load, or rather smoothly push down the barrel at a range of 30 to 36#. Then seat the bullet with a 2 handed HARD THUMP, again when measured with a dedicated precision force gage, the seating force measures 105# average.

In other words I seat my bullets, regardless if they are land riders, sabots, or even shooting smokeless in my custom...……… HARD.
It compresses the propellant and the bullet will remain in place at minimum with the forces required to load (push) it down the barrel.

Yes, all my force testing is done with precision equipment I used prior to retirement. I'm a retired Industrial Ergonomist. I have measured tens of thousands of forces, understand that there's one right way and every other way gives skewed results or is wrong.

Do you do this standing on 1 foot, with your head tilted Sideways?

Jokes aside, This is good info, When Folks Show up with BH209 FTF’s, Hangfires, Partial fires etc. They can see what to do to Correct it. Push the Bullet down with 20# of Force, When they Hit the Powder give her a Good 2 Handed Thump! And hopefully their Thump measures 105# Since NONE of them will have a Force Gauge like you have.

Lastly, What do you think of Western Powders NOT Recommending Lead (Conical Bullets) They CLEARLY state that results Vary depending on the Many factors, therefore they Don’t Recommend them. In other words, if they Fail With our Powder (like some have spoke of here, And my Friend in Tennessee) We told you so!

 

[ENCORE]

Do you do this standing on 1 foot, with your head tilted Sideways?

Jokes aside, This is good info, When Folks Show up with BH209 FTF’s, Hangfires, Partial fires etc. They can see what to do to Correct it. Push the Bullet down with 20# of Force, When they Hit the Powder give her a Good 2 Handed Thump! And hopefully their Thump measures 105# Since NONE of them will have a Force Gauge like you have.

Lastly, What do you think of Western Powders NOT Recommending Lead (Conical Bullets) They CLEARLY state that results Vary depending on the Many factors, therefore they Don’t Recommend them. In other words, if they Fail With our Powder (like some have spoke of here, And my Friend in Tennessee) We told you so!

I have no clue about lead bullets, but to be honest I'd like to know, why not? If the bullet used enough force to be pushed down the bore, say 20#, a wad such as a veggie was used, I have no clue why it wouldn't go off every time and shoot well.
This whole summer for us has been kind of turned upside down, heck maybe even sideways. Just lots going on that has prevented most of the "normal" things we usually do. I need to get back in the swing and back to the range.

A really good friend of mine that is an UNBELIEVABLE off hand shooter with percussion or flint rifles, sent me up a couple of the 45cal bullets he makes, along with the paper to wrap them all cut and ready to go. Maybe I just might try sizing them and see what they might do out of DUNAMIS one day ????
I guess I size them after patching????

Wouldn't I have to slow it WAY DOWN to keep from leading the barrel????

 

[MuleyFever]

I have shot BH209 for years without a single issue.

 

[Rhatch]

I predict There will be LOTS more of these types of BH209 Threads in the near Future, as long as more affordable BH209 Compatible Rifles become available, Folks will surely have to try BH209 since it is Touted by some as the best thing since Sliced bread n Butter. And almost EVERYONE wants a Less Corrosive Alternative Powder these Days, that requires No Swabbing Between Shots. Real Blackpowder is to much work for a LARGE Majority, Even Though it gives the Most Reliable ignition available.

Fact is, Not everyone Shoots ML like some of us do, A large majority of Folks, especially in these Western States (Elk Country) Buy a Muzzleloader so they can Hunt Elk in a Special Season (if one exists?) plenty of them Care NOTHING about the Care, and understanding of the Rifle. If a Guy Enjoys these Forums, all you can do is educate as these Types of threads Pop up, Cuz inevitably they are going to!

Funny I got into muzzleloading for this exact reason. I can hunt when there are significantly less people