Any flintlock hunters around here?

[HighUintas]

In addition to Olsolitaires lock rec, Chambers and Kiblers locks typically need no tuning. My Chambers lock ... It could use a tuning. I hear of Chambers putting out duds occasionally. Never heard of a Kibler dud. I've heard of quite a few LR dudsThere's a newer one, owned by Rice, which makes high quality (CNC most parts I believe) locks that from the reports I've seen so far, don't really require tuning.

One that will likely high quality when released again, is the Ditchburn lock. I can't remember the owner of the molds though. He's going for all CNC tight tolerance parts.

 

[Olsolitaire1]

Who made the iron mounted JJ Henry for you?

Here is the updated information on that rifle,

this from one Blake Stevenson:

"I do know the rifle that is in the Smithsonian and I’m currently looking at the MESDA artifact sheet and written up by John Bivins about the rifle.
The rifle you sent photos of has several Salem School features that help attribute it. The dimpled recesses at the top of the patch box door and the bottom of the patchbox finial are Salem in style. I have not seen this elsewhere. The push button for the patchbox at in the top plate also is a very NC characteristic. As was mentioned the incised line running down the comb is a very Southern feature. Not to mention the double spur trigger guard but I just did.

John Bivins believed this rifle to be a Timothy Vogler rifle as per his notes from 1980.

If my memory serves correctly there is an “ES” mark stamped into the top barrel flat. This maker would be none other than Elias Schaub a Salem and Bethania NC maker whom apprenticed and worked in the Salem School of gunsmithing. Salem makers used Henry locks as many other gunsmiths did.

I hope this helps a little. If I can help in any other way just let me know.

If you push the Smithsonian to change its labeling of the artifact let me know and I’ll help with the documentation to help prove the case.

Blake Stevenson
Manager of the Vogler Gunsmith & Silversmith Shops"

Long Rifle | Smithsonian Institution

www.si.edu

 

[ElPollo]

Here is the updated information on that rifle,

this from one Blake Stevenson:

"I do know the rifle that is in the Smithsonian and I’m currently looking at the MESDA artifact sheet and written up by John Bivins about the rifle.
The rifle you sent photos of has several Salem School features that help attribute it. The dimpled recesses at the top of the patch box door and the bottom of the patchbox finial are Salem in style. I have not seen this elsewhere. The push button for the patchbox at in the top plate also is a very NC characteristic. As was mentioned the incised line running down the comb is a very Southern feature. Not to mention the double spur trigger guard but I just did.

John Bivins believed this rifle to be a Timothy Vogler rifle as per his notes from 1980.

If my memory serves correctly there is an “ES” mark stamped into the top barrel flat. This maker would be none other than Elias Schaub a Salem and Bethania NC maker whom apprenticed and worked in the Salem School of gunsmithing. Salem makers used Henry locks as many other gunsmiths did.

I hope this helps a little. If I can help in any other way just let me know.

If you push the Smithsonian to change its labeling of the artifact let me know and I’ll help with the documentation to help prove the case.

Blake Stevenson
Manager of the Vogler Gunsmith & Silversmith Shops"

Long Rifle | Smithsonian Institution

www.si.edu

I was aware of and agree with the NC provenance of that rifle. I’ve done a lot of research on fur trade era rifles from the Lancaster and Philadelphia gunsmiths that supplied the fur trade as well as the European imports. That provenance information does not take away from the gun at all. It’s a really nicely done piece. I have also known Larry Walker, who replicated Henry English patterns, scroll guards and Lancasters since about 2005. Wish I had him build a gun for me while he was still doing it. I joined him and a bunch of other AMM members on a trip to a private museum in NM several years ago that allowed us to handle a wide variety of original pieces from trade guns to fur trade era rifles by multiple builders to probably the largest collection of original Hawkens that exists. Love these guns. Don’t hunt with BP guns as much as I used to. Iron sights started to get hard for me in my late 40s and it’s been a minute since then.

 

[HighUintas]

I was aware of and agree with the NC provenance of that rifle. I’ve done a lot of research on fur trade era rifles from the Lancaster and Philadelphia gunsmiths that supplied the fur trade as well as the European imports. That provenance information does not take away from the gun at all. It’s a really nicely done piece. I have also known Larry Walker, who replicated Henry English patterns, scroll guards and Lancasters since about 2005. Wish I had him build a gun for me while he was still doing it. I joined him and a bunch of other AMM members on a trip to a private museum in NM several years ago that allowed us to handle a wide variety of original pieces from trade guns to fur trade era rifles by multiple builders to probably the largest collection of original Hawkens that exists. Love these guns. Don’t hunt with BP guns as much as I used to. Iron sights started to get hard for me in my late 40s and it’s been a minute since then.

I'm jealous. That museum has been on my list for a couple of years now. I heard from a friend who knows Jeff Hengesbaugh that Gordon was having health issues and maybe his boy was too, or something like that. Hengesbaugh was showing people the collection for awhile and he told my friend he wasn't sure if it would continue to be available to view. That was sometime last year or the year before I think. Hopefully I can make it there soon.

 

[ElPollo]

I'm jealous. That museum has been on my list for a couple of years now. I heard from a friend who knows Jeff Hengesbaugh that Gordon was having health issues and maybe his boy was too, or something like that. Hengesbaugh was showing people the collection for awhile and he told my friend he wasn't sure if it would continue to be available to view. That was sometime last year or the year before I think. Hopefully I can make it there soon.

I’ve been to that museum a half dozen times and it’s absolutley amazing. Gordon is a great guy and I hope I am as spry as he’s been at that age. Wish him an easy passing and many buffalo in the afterlife. My understanding is that the contents of the museum get sold when he passes and it will flood that market. I am not well healed enough to significantly benefit from that and will miss the resource he provided to us fur trade nerds.

 

[Olsolitaire1]

Jim Gordon is still with us just two weeks ago my friend (another AMM & fur trade rifle collector & researcher) spoke with him because we are planning another visit in the spring. I know Jeff and Larry. In fact I had paid for Larry's first English with a Ron Paul lock, but I had to step away from the deal due to other factors (darn) I did later on got to handle the rifle another AMM friend bought it. Larry is not active any longer lost track of each other.

Interesting I met this week with member in Chicago, the three of have rekindled the hunt for the mythical (unicorn) iron mounted Henry, say mythical cause as you one has not been located. With the more information we have been putting together from letters from AMFCo. to Henry for orders, we have a good idea what it may have looked like.I heard that Larry was on the same track. We shall see what we do with this...

 

[Kdf22]

Mostly squirrel hunting with my rifles, they weren’t cooperating yesterday

 

[cmwhitmoyer]

My last flintlock hunt for this season. Snowing lightly around 35°. Bigger system coming in tomorrow. Hopefully, the deer come to the field to feed. Deep freeze hits o. Monday.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[ElPollo]

Jim Gordon is still with us just two weeks ago my friend (another AMM & fur trade rifle collector & researcher) spoke with him because we are planning another visit in the spring. I know Jeff and Larry. In fact I had paid for Larry's first English with a Ron Paul lock, but I had to step away from the deal due to other factors (darn) I did later on got to handle the rifle another AMM friend bought it. Larry is not active any longer lost track of each other.

Interesting I met this week with member in Chicago, the three of have rekindled the hunt for the mythical (unicorn) iron mounted Henry, say mythical cause as you one has not been located. With the more information we have been putting together from letters from AMFCo. to Henry for orders, we have a good idea what it may have looked like.I heard that Larry was on the same track. We shall see what we do with this...

Glad to hear about Jim. Larry is a spectacular guy and very talented. I’ve not talked with him in maybe 4 years though. Last I heard he was doing some volunteer work for his local museum. Still regret not having him build me a gun. At the time he was super into the English pattern guns and I was more into the Lancaster patterns. And I had just had a kid and was poor and barely house-broken from being a ‘homeless’ wildlife biologist who had lived the previous decade in a tent all over the west.

On the iron mounted Henry’s. I’ve got no clue what they looked like. I think the Hansens and others have likely over interpreted the term ‘pattern’ from the original sources. I don’t think a lot of their fur trade guns were all that consistent. Based on the Henry-marked guns I’ve seen, I think it was pretty common to use parts from a variety of makers and to have stockers that shaped stocks with influences from a lot of PA schools. So a Lancaster gun could have a curvy Lehigh school type stock and mounts that today we would attribute to other makers like Tryon. But frankly iron mounts were really uncommon in PA guns, so it’s equally likely that the iron-mounted Henry was and an English pattern. The Europeans made iron mounted guns as high status weapons because it was harder to work with and more valuable for other uses than brass.

The south made a lot of iron guns, I don’t see much evidence for southern makers influencing the big Lancaster and Philly manufacturers in the 1820-40 period. You can see that influence from makers who immigrated down the Ohio, but not for the established ones who stayed behind.

So that’s my thoughts. I’d never lay a bet on it, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the iron mounted Henry was a high status version of the English pattern rifle or maybe a scroll guard with an English style patch box. It’s fun to speculate, but my guess is that the only way we’ll ever find out will be from an archeological dig. I’d shocked if an intact version turned up a this point.

 

[HighUintas]

@Olsolitaire1 and @ElPollo , I assume you're both familiar with Charles Hanson Jrs "the Hawken rifle - its place in history"?

He gives good information on jjhenry trade patterns and numbers sold, with a picture of one of each.