Any flintlock hunters around here?

[HighUintas]

I don’t usually look at the muzzleloader section because of all the inline BS So glad to see other flinters here. Yes, successful with them over the years.

Built my first one in 1982 -83, 20 ga./62 cal. Northwest trade gun. Taken all types of small game, ducks, geese, pheasants, grouse and the like as well as a whitetail. I shot it almost always and became pretty good with it. Still my favorite.

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Late 80’s I then had a copy of 1822 54 cal Leman trade rifle built for me and I did the finish work. Taken whitetail, mule deer and 3 free range buffalo with4 shots. All patched round balls hand casted.

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My latest one is a copy of one in the Smithsonian a J.J.Henry trade rifle. Elk, mulie and small game. All have a good bit of character, saddle wear, breaks mended with rawhide. The horn is from one of my buffalo.Good times

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Those are fantastic! What calibers area they?

I've wanted a jj Henry trade rifle for awhile. There's a couple of nice looking ones in a Hawken rifle book (Hanson) that I'd like to make a copy of. Who built yours?

I'm unsure if my next one will be an early Hawken (I'm a fan growing up near STL) or if I'll do a long .36 flint. I need a small game getter as my only flintlock is a .58

 

[Olsolitaire1]

Love that grouse photo, what a cool hunt.

Sage grouse lots of them, lived in Winnemucca & Elko NV. for 12 years

 

[jrbarnes9972]

Still after in in WV

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[cmwhitmoyer]

I took mine out yesterday. Got to the farm, started walking to my stand and found fresh tracks in the snow on the lane to my stand. Then I crossed the human tracks coming from the Amish farm next door. The m-fers drove off the property in the morning. Right before lunchtime. They even walked through the woodlot behind my Uncle's house. They don't have permission to hunt on the property but the Uncle won't have them cited for trespassing.
I sat the rest of the day hoping something would come back but no luck.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[HighUintas]

I did a little bit of LARPing this morning. I found some snowshoe hair tracks on my way back, but didn't have enough time to follow them and try to get one.

I had a load in my barrel for quite a while, so I decided to check my zero and 50 yd. Not bad considering I haven't shot in quite a while, I was on skis, and my rest was a tree branch.

I really need to paint the back of my front sight white so it's easier to see. I had a really tough time aiming at the center of the black with the low light conditions.

 

[Formidilosus]

Has anyone here done work on performance with their flintlocks- as in what size grouping at 50 or 100 yards (not just a random 3 shots), distance, speed shooting, etc?

 

[ElPollo]

I don’t usually look at the muzzleloader section because of all the inline BS So glad to see other flinters here. Yes, successful with them over the years.

Built my first one in 1982 -83, 20 ga./62 cal. Northwest trade gun. Taken all types of small game, ducks, geese, pheasants, grouse and the like as well as a whitetail. I shot it almost always and became pretty good with it. Still my favorite.

View attachment 816264

View attachment 816265
View attachment 816266


Late 80’s I then had a copy of 1822 54 cal Leman trade rifle built for me and I did the finish work. Taken whitetail, mule deer and 3 free range buffalo with4 shots. All patched round balls hand casted.

View attachment 816267



My latest one is a copy of one in the Smithsonian a J.J.Henry trade rifle. Elk, mulie and small game. All have a good bit of character, saddle wear, breaks mended with rawhide. The horn is from one of my buffalo.Good times

View attachment 816271

Who made the iron mounted JJ Henry for you?

 

[HighUintas]

Has anyone here done work on performance with their flintlocks- as in what size grouping at 50 or 100 yards (not just a random 3 shots), distance, speed shooting, etc?

I have recently started trying to figure out my functional max distance this year. The first year I had issues with the muzzle and bore. That's a whole separate post.

I haven't yet done 10 shot groups on the load to see what's best, because I'm fairly certain as long as the charge is high enough for my barrels twist and my PRB tightness, I still can't shoot the difference of what would be the "best" load and my load. What seems best so far, is a full 120gr by volume measure of 2f schuetzen. Generally, the tightest possible PRB combo is the most accurate as long as the patch has no tears, holes, or indications of blow by.

I use 70gr for 50yd practice. It's mild recoil and is right on poa. 120gr is about 4" high at 50 and usually a touch high at 100.

My max off hand distance is 50 if I've been practicing. Max rested distance so far is 75. On game.

Speed. Right now I'm at about a minute to reload (I think ) but that's not using a paper cartridge and I don't have a fast system figured out yet. I'm so slow I haven't bothered to time it.

Using a paper cartridge you should be able to do 20s. I think a Canadian version of you has said he can do 10, but can't remember for sure. There's a good chance the cartridge will have same poi as PRB if your PRB is a tight load.

I just made a couple paper cartridges recently but haven't shot them yet. Need to test the design and then work on speed.

I consider it to be a one and done shot opportunity at the moment. Much more practice is needed.

There's also, the dreaded flinch. Having the pan go off in my face makes me flinch like hell and I actively have to fight it every time I shoot. When I used to shoot my 30-284 at 50 rounds a week, I knew I didn't flinch one bit and poor shots were due to form. After shooting this a lot, even with the mild 70gr load, I notice myself wanting to flinch with my 243. So, I'll be practicing today by dry firing with a charge in the pan since my gun is already dirty for the day.

The flinch calls marked on the targets are actually flinches. It very noticeable with the slight delay in ignition.

100yds, 120gr, 5 shots. I think one of those high large holes is mine, but not sure.


2f OE, this powder is hotter than 2f schuetzen, which is why I did 100gr as a guess.



2f schuetzen hunting load. 0.570 ball, ~1700fps


Testing to see if there's difference in poi between clean bore and dirty. Not much difference for me. Let a couple of kids at the range shoot. They are the 2 high shots.



Off hand at 25 with the 70gr load


100 yard, 120gr hunting load

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Has anyone here done work on performance with their flintlocks- as in what size grouping at 50 or 100 yards (not just a random 3 shots), distance, speed shooting, etc?

Most people can barely get a flintlock to fire, much less commit serious practice to it. Even when i hunted flintlock a bunch I rarely put more than 20 practice rounds a year through it. Shooting any kind of volume requires a ton of cleaning, and you'll need to sharpen or replace flints frequently. Basically, everything with a flintlock is a hassle and little to no fun, except the hunting part. Not saying that people shouldn't, just that they typically don't, even if they're very effective killers.

 

[HighUintas]

Most people can barely get a flintlock to fire, much less commit serious practice to it. Even when i hunted flintlock a bunch I rarely put more than 20 practice rounds a year through it. Shooting any kind of volume requires a ton of cleaning, and you'll need to sharpen or replace flints frequently. Basically, everything with a flintlock is a hassle and little to no fun, except the hunting part. Not saying that people shouldn't, just that they typically don't, even if they're very effective killers.

I don't find it bothersome at all. If you have the right lube and patch/ball size you can shoot all day without swabbing between shots even once. If you know how to manage the flint and the lock and have a quality lock, you should be able to get at least 25 shots out without replacing the flint or fiddling with it. With Flint management, you should be able to get 75 shots with one Flint

If you're shooting real BP the cleaning takes a total of like 10 minutes of hands on time.

So it's really not bad, it's just that you can go fire off 50 rounds in 1 hrs and neglect cleaning for 3000 rounds haha.

The only reason I don't shoot a flintlock as my sole rifle is because my effective range is 75 yards.... And I hunt to get meat.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

We have very, very different experiences. Running moose milk patches every other shot i can get ~10 shots before loading the next becomes problematic. Sparks are noticeably reduced in about the same time, requiring some amount of flint fiddling.

Full cleaning is a 60-90 minute process depending on how many guns were shot, much of that time is waiting for water to boil and barrels to flash dry. I always use fffg for my main charge.

Curious to know your process, and how many years you've maintained good performance out of your barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

I have recently started trying to figure out my functional max distance this year. The first year I had issues with the muzzle and bore. That's a whole separate post.

I haven't yet done 10 shot groups on the load to see what's best, because I'm fairly certain as long as the charge is high enough for my barrels twist and my PRB tightness, I still can't shoot the difference of what would be the "best" load and my load. What seems best so far, is a full 120gr by volume measure of 2f schuetzen. Generally, the tightest possible PRB combo is the most accurate as long as the patch has no tears, holes, or indications of blow by.

I use 70gr for 50yd practice. It's mild recoil and is right on poa. 120gr is about 4" high at 50 and usually a touch high at 100.

My max off hand distance is 50 if I've been practicing. Max rested distance so far is 75. On game.

Yeah, getting info on real group sizes, which will make extrapolating usable distances easier; is nigh impossible in the flintlock realm.

Speed. Right now I'm at about a minute to reload (I think ) but that's not using a paper cartridge and I don't have a fast system figured out yet. I'm so slow I haven't bothered to time it.

Using a paper cartridge you should be able to do 20s. I think a Canadian version of you has said he can do 10, but can't remember for sure. There's a good chance the cartridge will have same poi as PRB if your PRB is a tight load.

I just made a couple paper cartridges recently but haven't shot them yet. Need to test the design and then work on speed.

I consider it to be a one and done shot opportunity at the moment. Much more practice is needed.

What I see looking in depth is like watching a turtle walking through peanut butter. To say that the community doesn’t look highly skilled is a gross understatement- and I don’t mean that rudely. There just doesn’t seem to be any interest in getting “better”.

There's also, the dreaded flinch. Having the pan go off in my face makes me flinch like hell and I actively have to fight it every time I shoot. When I used to shoot my 30-284 at 50 rounds a week, I knew I didn't flinch one bit and poor shots were due to form. After shooting this a lot, even with the mild 70gr load, I notice myself wanting to flinch with my 243. So, I'll be practicing today by dry firing with a charge in the pan since my gun is already dirty for the day.

The flinch calls marked on the targets are actually flinches. It very noticeable with the slight delay in ignition.

100yds, 120gr, 5 shots. I think one of those high large holes is mine, but not sure.
View attachment 821414

2f OE, this powder is hotter than 2f schuetzen, which is why I did 100gr as a guess.
View attachment 821416


2f schuetzen hunting load. 0.570 ball, ~1700fps
View attachment 821417

Testing to see if there's difference in poi between clean bore and dirty. Not much difference for me. Let a couple of kids at the range shoot. They are the 2 high shots.
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Off hand at 25 with the 70gr load
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100 yard, 120gr hunting load
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Appreciate that. I am not new to muzzleloaders, but most of my experience is with in-lines; first #11’s then 209’s. A moderate amount with side-locks, very little with flintlocks.
My interested now is in flintlocks, and specifically performance (speed/accuracy) using 18th century correct equipment. Finding anyone that cares at all about performance with them is difficult to say the least, and nearly impossible to find someone that has any information/data on it. Everyone seems to be more into reenacting whatever they think happened in the 1700’s, more than finding out what really can be done.

 

[long hunter]

What can really be done with one of these weapons depends on ones desire to be knowledgeable about the ignition method and a desire to practice to reach those goals,I read someone posting here they tried a 120 gr. Charge my question is why when one has not reached a reasonable range of accuracy with 80 or 90 grns. It takes time and a lot of it to attain a good load for hunting and that’s just for one rifle if you have more than one it begins all over. Sorta like the female species no two are the exact same when it comes to fine tuning them or perhaps they fine tuning you. For me a reasonable range for white tails is 50 to 75 yards not so much due to my ability but for a clean quick kill shooting round ball which definitely comes down to shot placement.

 

[HighUintas]

Yeah, getting info on real group sizes, which will make extrapolating usable distances easier; is nigh impossible in the flintlock realm.







What I see looking in depth is like watching a turtle walking through peanut butter. To say that the community doesn’t look highly skilled is a gross understatement- and I don’t mean that rudely. There just doesn’t seem to be any interest in getting “better”.






Appreciate that. I am not new to muzzleloaders, but most of my experience is with in-lines; first #11’s then 209’s. A moderate amount with side-locks, very little with flintlocks.
My interested now is in flintlocks, and specifically performance (speed/accuracy) using 18th century correct equipment. Finding anyone that cares at all about performance with them is difficult to say the least, and nearly impossible to find someone that has any information/data on it. Everyone seems to be more into reenacting whatever they think happened in the 1700’s, more than finding out what really can be done.

The Canadian "Form" is over on ALR (American Longrifle forum). His name is Daryl. He and his brother seem to shoot a whole lot up in BC and used to shoot a lot more than they do now. He's who I've gotten my info from on patch/ball combos, paper cartridges, smoothing the crown, etc. He mostly shoots cap guns, but also flints and is probably one of if not the best I've seen over there.

Most of the regulars there are real old guys, and many of them are true artists in their building abilities. Although many of them dress in period clothing and get together to shoot silhouette, many of them don't hunt anymore so there's no need to get faster, although I think they all do generally try to improve their shooting skill . There's monthly "postal matches", where previous winner picks target and shooting conditions. It is often off hand.

There are some good shooters on the muzzleloading forum too, but most aren't trying to be super speed proficient.

I think the biggest limiting factors in shooting those guns well are presence of flinch and ability to hold on target through the shot, and ability to use iron sights those iron sights well. The traditional ones are much harder than what's commonly available on newer iron sight guns. No fiber optic bead, etc. If I had a peep and cross hair globe, I'd be wayyy more accurate than I am now. Even changing out my sights may help a lot, like going to a polished brass bead and deep V or something similar, but all the sight options require building/finishing and I don't have the time at the moment. I'll try painting the back of my front post either white or some type of neon yellow and see how that does.

In general, I agree that most aren't trying as hard as folks are here to improve in their proficiency. But, I think that is because it is a much older crowd, where a higher portion of the shooters don't hunt, and a strikingly small percentage hunt elk or some other big game in the mountains where they need to pour on the lead to ensure game retrieval. It seems most of those guys are in the Midwest/south/east.

And yes, half the battle is figuring it out for a newbie. Load, flinching, sights, flint management, etc. Now I've got a handle on a couple of those aspects, I expect to be able to improve a lot more this year.

 

[RockAndSage]

I did a little bit of LARPing this morning. I found some snowshoe hair tracks on my way back, but didn't have enough time to follow them and try to get one.

I had a load in my barrel for quite a while, so I decided to check my zero and 50 yd. Not bad considering I haven't shot in quite a while, I was on skis, and my rest was a tree branch.

I really need to paint the back of my front sight white so it's easier to see. I had a really tough time aiming at the center of the black with the low light conditions.View attachment 821193View attachment 821194

When I was a kid there were some shooting competitions that included a night-shoot, where your target was a burning candle. Person with the least amount of damage to the candle that snuffed out the flame won. I had a period-correct german silver front sight installed to help with seeing at night, and it worked very well for that, as well as being excellent all-around. Never had a background where it was hard to see.

 

[HighUintas]

When I was a kid there were some shooting competitions that included a night-shoot, where your target was a burning candle. Person with the least amount of damage to the candle that snuffed out the flame won. I had a period-correct german silver front sight installed to help with seeing at night, and it worked very well for that, as well as being excellent all-around. Never had a background where it was hard to see.

Mine is a german silver front post, with the rear filed at a negative angle rather than perpendicular so that light doesn't reflect back towards me, but also has the top 1/32" filed and polished at a 45* away from me to catch light and act as a bead. It is supposed to be very visible in low light and many times is, but seems like I have to polish it too often for that to work.

 

[RockAndSage]

Yeah, getting info on real group sizes, which will make extrapolating usable distances easier; is nigh impossible in the flintlock realm.







What I see looking in depth is like watching a turtle walking through peanut butter. To say that the community doesn’t look highly skilled is a gross understatement- and I don’t mean that rudely. There just doesn’t seem to be any interest in getting “better”.






Appreciate that. I am not new to muzzleloaders, but most of my experience is with in-lines; first #11’s then 209’s. A moderate amount with side-locks, very little with flintlocks.
My interested now is in flintlocks, and specifically performance (speed/accuracy) using 18th century correct equipment. Finding anyone that cares at all about performance with them is difficult to say the least, and nearly impossible to find someone that has any information/data on it. Everyone seems to be more into reenacting whatever they think happened in the 1700’s, more than finding out what really can be done.

Unfortunately, you're probably not going to find what you're looking for in the Rokslide muzzleloader section, especially at the level you're wanting. But there are a few people here who are very good and knowledgeable with traditional guns. As was mentioned, other forums will be where to look.

People at that level do exist though, as I've seen them shoot and was mentored by one as a young kid. But the challenge will be finding them.

Most were at their peak back in the 1980s, when the interest in traditional muzzleloaders and buckskinning/rendezvous competitions was also at its peak. Interest back then having been fueled with a lot of the mountainman movies that came out of Hollywood in the 70s and 80s, like Jeremiah Johnson, etc. The same people that gravitated towards that were partially siphoned off by the Civil War reenactments that picked up in the late 80s and early 1990s, but the cowboy action shooting really drove one of the final nails in the coffins of the rendezvous and buckskinning community. When you used to have 200 family camps show up for a rendezvous (like a living history/reenactment, with a shooting competition and traders' row for fun), you now might get 15, with far fewer events each year.

Unfortunately, that's where the largest concentration of really elite knowledge was located, in maximizing accuracy of traditional flintlocks: pre-internet people that have largely aged out of a dying community. There are still a few around though, and @HighUintas recommendation for the American Longrifle Forum is excellent.

I can tell you from personal experience, guys had their flintlocks tuned up to be indistinguishably fast to the naked eye as a percussion rifle - no delay in firing after the hammer drops at all. And I've seen those guys drop silhouettes out past 800 yards with those guns. It can be done.

The biggest variables in accuracy include patch materials, patch thicknesses, consistency in patch lubrication, ball diameter, deformation of the pure-lead bullet during loading, powder charge consistency (volumetric vs weight), consistency in grain size of powder, consistency in pressure of seating the bullet over the powder charge and compression of that powder, and more. It's all very doable, but just a matter of isolating each variable for as much consistency as possible.

 

[Formidilosus]

@HighUintas and @RockAndSage

I have been on ALR forum quite a bit reading. Appreciate the info. I’ve looked hard on ALR and MZ forum for info, but as you say there doesn’t seem to be much, and generally there is often a negative reaction/response to people asking about increasing range/speed/etc. Not a big deal.

 

[HighUintas]

Unfortunately, you're probably not going to find what you're looking for in the Rokslide muzzleloader section, especially at the level you're wanting. But there are a few people here who are very good and knowledgeable with traditional guns. As was mentioned, other forums will be where to look.

People at that level do exist though, as I've seen them shoot and was mentored by one as a young kid. But the challenge will be finding them.

Most were at their peak back in the 1980s, when the interest in traditional muzzleloaders and buckskinning/rendezvous competitions was also at its peak. Interest back then having been fueled with a lot of the mountainman movies that came out of Hollywood in the 70s and 80s, like Jeremiah Johnson, etc. The same people that gravitated towards that were partially siphoned off by the Civil War reenactments that picked up in the late 80s and early 1990s, but the cowboy action shooting really drove one of the final nails in the coffins of the rendezvous and buckskinning community. When you used to have 200 family camps show up for a rendezvous (like a living history/reenactment, with a shooting competition and traders' row for fun), you now might get 15, with far fewer events each year.

Unfortunately, that's where the largest concentration of really elite knowledge was located, in maximizing accuracy of traditional flintlocks: pre-internet people that have largely aged out of a dying community. There are still a few around though, and @HighUintas recommendation for the American Longrifle Forum is excellent.

I can tell you from personal experience, guys had their flintlocks tuned up to be indistinguishably fast to the naked eye as a percussion rifle - no delay in firing after the hammer drops at all. And I've seen those guys drop silhouettes out past 800 yards with those guns. It can be done.

The biggest variables in accuracy include patch materials, patch thicknesses, consistency in patch lubrication, ball diameter, deformation of the pure-lead bullet during loading, powder charge consistency (volumetric vs weight), consistency in grain size of powder, consistency in pressure of seating the bullet over the powder charge and compression of that powder, and more. It's all very doable, but just a matter of isolating each variable for as much consistency as possible.

I thought about the age and pop culture aspect after my post. Now, we've got a lot of mountain hunting and gamer shooting being shown as the absolute cool thing to do.... That's what the majority of young people are doing and striving for that are in this world.

Those 70-90 year olds? They were wishing they could be Jeremiah Johnson back in 1980. They were good then and are now, but very few are schlepping their gun around the mountains worrying about being able to get a follow up shot loaded in 10 seconds haha.

Probably ones of the coolest guys I've met, Herb Troester, over 90, helped me build my first flintlock. That guy can shoot. 2" groups at 100 with a flint, very regularly. He unfortunately messed up his spine a couple of years ago because he shot too big a charge on a 58. It was pretty big.... Maybe 180gr or something. Since then he's had to have spinal surgery and can't build much now. He's probably one of the most knowledgeable in the west on original Hawken rifles. He's handled and measured quite a few, including Kit Carson and Jim Bridger's.

 

[HighUintas]

@HighUintas and @RockAndSage

I have been on ALR forum quite a bit reading. Appreciate the info. I’ve looked hard on ALR and MZ forum for info, but as you say there doesn’t seem to be much, and generally there is often a negative reaction/response to people asking about increasing range/speed/etc. Not a big deal.

What has piqued your interest in flintlocks recently, if you don't mind me asking?