Another SFP vs FFP post

[elsb0048]

So, forgive my ignorance, at what range does wind bracketing come into play?

Because anything past maybe 150 is a poke and a prayer in 99% of situations around here, and 250 is nearly a hard limit with most shots being taken 75 yards and in.

I don't live where long shots are taken as a normal matter of course.

While I dream of a mountain hunt, the economic reality is that I will probably see Africa or the inside of a pine box before I see Wyoming.

mess with a ballistic calculator and see when a wind speed pushes you far enough to worry about.

but probably not until ~200/250 yds at the absolute closest assuming MPBR type assumptions of trying to stay on an 8/10" kill zone
0.55BC at ~2600fps in a 10mph wind drifts 3.5", 20mph wind drifts 7"

Long as you can guess if a wind is likely more than 15mph and just don't shoot if that's the case you're probably good to go

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Whereas I have been here at Camera Land Sport Optics part, and full time, for over 50 years, these days I have realized that the internet knows more than I've learned. With that said, I hope this answers this for you:

"You actually understand the core mechanics perfectly. The reality is that for the type of hunting you are doing, you aren't missing out on anything—and your instinct to dump the First Focal Plane (FFP) scope for a Second Focal Plane (SFP) is completely valid.

The internet often treats FFP like a mandatory upgrade, but it is a tool built for a specific job description that doesn't match yours. Here is a breakdown of why you are feeling this friction and why SFP makes total sense for you.

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What FFP Actually "Gains" You (And Why It Doesn't Matter For Your Use Case)​

The primary practical benefits of FFP boil down to three things, none of which apply to sub-200-yard Eastern hunting:

• Fast Wind Holds at Lower Magnification: If you are shooting at 500 yards in a crosswind, you might want to back your magnification down from 18x to 8x to widen your field of view and catch your bullet's impact. In an FFP scope, your 2-Mil wind hold mark is still a 2-Mil hold at 8x. In an SFP scope, that hold changes. But at 100 or 200 yards? Wind drift is practically negligible for big game.
• Rapid Multi-Target Engagement: In tactical shooting or PRS matches, you might shoot a target at 300 yards, then immediately transition to one at 600 yards without time to touch your dial. You hold over using the reticle at whatever magnification you happen to be on.
• Immediate Second-Shot Corrections: If a long-range shooter misses a target, they can use the FFP reticle like a ruler, see that they missed exactly 1.5 Mils low, and instantly hold 1.5 Mils high for the follow-up shot without worrying about what zoom setting they are on.

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The Real Cost of FFP for Eastern Hunters​

Because the FFP reticle shrinks and grows with the zoom, it introduces major downsides for close-range, fast-paced hunting:

• The "Invisible" Reticle: At minimum magnification (like 3x or 4x) in thick timber or low light, an FFP reticle turns into a tiny, thin spiderweb. Without a daylight-bright illumination feature, it's incredibly easy to lose it against a dark deer hide.
• Slower Acquisition on Quick Shots: SFP scopes give you a thick, bold reticle that stays the exact same size whether you are on 3x or 9x. When a deer jumps out at 40 yards, your eye naturally snaps to those heavy SFP crosshairs instantly.

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The Verdict​

If your hunting is primarily an Eastern, sub-100-yard proposition where 200 yards is a "stretch," you are firmly in SFP territory. For your distances, you should be using Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR). If you sight your rifle in to be about 2 inches high at 100 yards, you can aim dead-center on a deer's vitals from 0 out to roughly 250 yards (depending on your cartridge) and never think about drop, holdovers, or dials.

Given your busy schedule with archery, pistol shooting, and rucking, you don't need a scope that demands a learning curve or feels "wrong" during a split-second shot. Ditching the FFP for a high-quality SFP scope with a clean duplex or simple illuminated center-dot reticle will give you exactly what you need: a point-and-shoot system that works perfectly when a quick opportunity arises."

 

[Dave Thomas]

For the op a second focal plane scope is the better option. I've spent most of my hunting in the same conditions. I've just recently switched to ffp but some of my areas offer longer shots but the majority is still the same as the op is hunting. Southeastern whitetail hunting is mostly better suited to second focal plane.

 

[Kurts86]

I really like FFP for wide open western hunting and NRL hunter type shooting. If I am eastern deer hunting inside of 200 yards I use SFP.

FFP is fundamentally a better system but the reticle designs are often such a compromise that they are useless in the most common hunting situations. FFP is also becoming more of a requirement now that 6x-10x zoom ratios become standard and shooting does not occur at maximum magnification. If you have a 3x zoom ratio it’s often less of an issue because the top end magnification is much lower.

 

[nm.otter]

At minimum magnification (like 3x or 4x) in thick timber or low light, an FFP reticle turns into a tiny, thin spiderweb. Without a daylight-bright illumination feature, it's incredibly easy to lose it against a dark deer hide.

The vast majority of currently available FFP reticles turn into...

IME a fixed 6x works fabulously for 300 yards and under -- subtensions included.

 

[rookieforever33]

Unfortunately most manufactures make ffp scopes that do not work as well as sfp at lower magnification. If a 3-9x40, or 2-6x40 with simple subtensions for wind and elevation that could be seen easily at all magnifications it would be great. It would also be great since you could have a system for closer range stuff at home, and one for when more magnification is needed that work the same. Being able to practice wind bracketing at home under 250 yards every year would make it easier to do at 400 yards every few years.

 

[partsunavailable]

Id just suggest not having both ffp scopes and sfp scopes. Because when you get used to using your ffp reticle for holding, you will undoubtedly use the sub-tensions in the sfp scope for a hold and cuss yourself as you airball the shot with a perfect trigger press.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Thank you to everyone.

I wanted 'better' quality glass, something more than a $200 scope, which most of mine are, and I wound up with this thing.

Bout to pop it loose and list it, probably this weekend.

 

[Jpsmith1]

I agree with the OP. I have yet to be in a hunting situation that I think FFP would've helped me shoot or follow-up quicker. Part of this reason is the poor FFP reticles. I've used NF Mil-R now for years and SWFA Mil-Quad for about six months. They're okay. But my SFP Triji Accupoints still seem like much better hunting scopes.

I've got a S2H THLR on order, I'm hoping I love it. So far the only benefit I've seen with my FFP scopes is when zeroing I can use the ruler to make adjustments without caring what power I'm on. So I understand the benefit in theory, but in practice, on animals, I just haven't needed to use the ruler.

I've learned that the s2h instructors on this site know what they're talking about. I'm guessing when they are hunting at long range with a trained spotter, they can be very effective with follow-up shots with an FFP reticle.

I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. The s2h guys are extremely knowledgeable and, while I haven't seen them shoot, no doubt could learn me a lot.

I am a mediocre shot, but I can hit a target within eastern shooting ranges reliably.

IME a fixed 6x works fabulously for 300 yards and under -- subtensions included.

What is your experience or opinion on something like a fixed 6 for super tight shots? I am not entirely opposed to something like a SWFA fixed

25 yards or so and moving?

Without experience, it feels like a weak point.

 

[dreamingWest]

I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. The s2h guys are extremely knowledgeable and, while I haven't seen them shoot, no doubt could learn me a lot.

I am a mediocre shot, but I can hit a target within eastern shooting ranges reliably.

100%. Same.

 

[anonymous22]

So, forgive my ignorance, at what range does wind bracketing come into play?

Because anything past maybe 150 is a poke and a prayer in 99% of situations around here, and 250 is nearly a hard limit with most shots being taken 75 yards and in.

I don't live where long shots are taken as a normal matter of course.

While I dream of a mountain hunt, the economic reality is that I will probably see Africa or the inside of a pine box before I see Wyoming.

Wind has an effect outside of a no wind zero. Essentially it always has some effect, and compounds in severity, distance or target size.

That said, if it’s not a concern for you where you are then it’s not a concern. At 250y you can probably just as easily use open sights. I can’t make its features be useful to people.

Sometimes what I do for close shots on a FFP, is turn my illumination on max, and run it low magnification so it looks like a little red dot mini cross hair for anything 150 and in, if its going to be a max pbr shot with a dark tree background.

 

[wesfromky]

I had a bad experience with a vortex ffp that I couldn't see the reticle on at lower magnifications. But, my mil ffp Maven RS1.2 is totally usable at lower power. I expect the S2H ffp scope to be even better than the Maven. So, I would say it's really more about what ffp reticle/scope you are using rather then just sfp v ffp.

 

[peaches]

Ffp for precision and sfp for simple 'killin' at woods ranges.

Doug well laid out the advantages of both. My two favorite hunting scopes are the SWFA 3-9 and 3-9 Accupoint with mil dots. They both have their places. For sane ranges the dots work great for hits out to 400 but you need to adjust the magnification so the dots hit for your bullet drop.