Another SFP vs FFP post

[Jpsmith1]

What does FFP gain me that I don't understand?

I get the academics of it.

Subtention remains constant throughout the zoom range so the hash marks for elevation and windage are consistent from low to high power.

Why should I care?

If I'm taking a shot that requires figuring windage and elevation, I probably have the time to zoom or I probably shouldn't be taking the shot at all.

Right now, mentally, I can't take a quick shot because I'm not sufficiently accustomed to the small reticle at low power. I know how it works but it feels wrong and quick shots are more common than far shots.

So, I can either put a couple thousand rounds through a rifle at varying zoom levels which, if I am perfectly honest, I'm not inclined to do between putting 10k arrows a year down range and 3-5k pistol rounds down range plus trying to run or ruck 15 miles a week and work 40+.

Or I can dump the FFP scope, scoop up a decent piece of glass in SFP and go.

Eastern hunting tends to be a sub-100 yard proposition and 200 is a stretch shot most places I hunt, so long range is a range thing at best or shooting at varmints.

What say you all? What am I not understanding?

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Interested in this as well, following. My shots are always inside of 400 yards, realistically been inside 300 with furthest being 287 and I don't really have a super strong desire to become a long-range sniper hunter so I've been reluctant to switch for the reasons you point out. Have been mulling trying out the S2H scope mainly from reading on here and probably more so for reliability/robustness and just my general desire to support products that are purposefully developed. If I get to the point I can spot my shots consistently I could see the advantage of FFP for a follow up shot if a miss occurs. A lot of articles I have read have pointed to the advantages of SFP scopes for traditional hunting (but I now question a lot of the articles I've read over the years after being on Rokslide ), but there seems to be a strong push to mil FFP scopes for hunting and I also feel like you I am missing something that perhaps can only be understood by taking the S2H course, as I strongly prefer a simple duplex reticle, maybe it's just what I'm used to and I realize we don't know what we don't know. If a guy is running mil and FFP for NRL or PRS I could see an advantage for having one system across the board as well. I have shot one match of PRS with a FFP scope, in no way did I walk away thinking I needed that for hunting, it actually probably further pushed me to stick with SFP duplex and dial a little to get to 400 or use a holdover simple reticle seems.

 

[Rich M]

If you are shooting less than 300-400 yds should not be dialing or using FFP scope.

I use scope on 6x when hunting out to 300 yds. Point and shoot, no shenanigans or time wasted.

 

[Rhansen]

If you’re not shooting a FFP in a low magnification that didn’t pass the drop test then you are WRONG!!

In all seriousness, I think people just get caught up in the trends. There hasn’t been many scenarios in “my” hunting experience that I needed to use reticle sub-tensions and I didn’t have time to just dial. If I have time to range then generally I have time to dial . That said I have both and use both.Use what makes sense to you and not what everybody else is doing. Just imo

 

[naked wombats]

100 yards and in it won't matter.

With a good reticle, the ffp at low power should still be plenty usable to hit a deer, pig etc at that range.

With that said, the hashes lining up at all zoom powers is great for a couple reasons.

1. The drop doesn't change, so if you practice to say 300 yards. If it all math's right, let's say the 2nd hash is 200, and the 3rd is 300, that's the same zoomed or not.

2. Quick drop works if you have a cartridge that falls in line, or can be corrected for your MV.

As an example, my buddy's brother had only shot SFP and would "sight in 1" high for the long shots" but had a blast ringing steel reliably out to 400 with my 223 and 22lr when I told him where to hold. He hasnt gone all in yet, but his mind was blown you could know exactly where it would go.

Also to note, not needing 25x+ to reach 200 equally mind blowing.

 

[elsb0048]

I think it ties back to spotting impacts and so it'll depend on the magnification of your scope and recoil of your rifle

If you have a fairly low magnification on the top end (say 8-10x) and a moderate to light recoiling rifle you can probably just dial to max mag and have a reasonable chance of spotting impacts.

If you have say 3-18x or 5-25x then you'll be required to either do some mental math to 'translate' your hashes or to shoot on max magnification and probably lose sight picture and not be able to use your reticle to make corrections as effectively.

Depending on the magnifications and reticles I could see going either way. I tried my friend's nx8 4-32 and the reticle was useless/invisible to me until about 9x.

I'm new at this but I've found myself shooting between 6-8x for most shots in 400-600 range to try to maintain sight picture

That said I feel as if the number of SFP scopes with 8-10x top end and windage hashmarks in the reticle is sort of low, as is the supply of ffp scopes that are useful on minimum power.

 

[Rich M]

I always think about a story w guy using 308. Bull elk at 250 yards. Trying to dial, switching positions - prone to pack, cant get the shot off. Bull walks away. Most of us would have put gun against tree and shot it dead. This dude was trying to do what he kept reading online.

It aint for everyone.

MPBR is 350 for most 3,000 fps cartridges. 3 inch rise/fall. 10-12 inch drop at 400. I dont have a need for FFP, SFP does all i ever need shooting 243 or 30-06.

Edit - if i was gonna shoot further would dial and FFP. Just dont need it.

 

[Kyguy]

I tend to NOT view SFP hunting scopes as a variable, it's a two power scope for me., low power and high power. It's either on the lowest power, 2x or 3x, which can easily be used to make vital hits out to 250 or 300 yards on deer size game, or it's on the highest power 9x or 10x for precision and use of the reticle, if it has such a reticle in it. I truly cannot remember the last time I shot a 2-7/3-9/2-10 range scope on anything in between the low and high powers. Lots of people on here say well then just get a fixed 10x scope... Yeah well it's a fixed 9x with an option for 3x. Or vice versa. LOL.

I don't care for FFP for MY hunting. I'm not going to shoot past 500 yards, and most time not past 300.

I can see why the target shooters and PRS guys use it.

 

[yotebuster17]

If you are not using the subtensions, then by all means get a SFP scope. There are compromises with FFP, such as a reticle that can be too small to see at low power at low light, and a retical that can be thicker at high power for less precision. Those tradeoffs are only worth it if you plan to use subtensions. If you plan to dial, or use MPBR then there’s no reason whatsoever to get a FFP.

 

[MuleyFever]

FFP is overrated. I've tried a few and got rid of them. I'll try the S2H scope then I'm done. I've never missed the opportunity to kill an animal because my scope was SFP.

 

[signing off]

Well, I'm drinking the Kool aid around here. And have mentally decided on the SWFA 3-9. All the arguments FOR it drown out the MPBR old school method. I'm in the Ozarks and can't even find an opportunity for the spotting scope I had to have! So FFP and SFP might be an easy decision.
This conversation is coming up at a good time.

 

[Chris in TN]

You're honestly not missing anything. SFP scopes still do fine in a pretty broad range of circumstances and it sounds like most of your shooting falls within that arena. Don't overthink it and don't feel pressured to do counterproductive things just because the cool kids here do them.

 

[ChrisAU]

I always dial elevation but I want to adjust my wind hold while I’m in the scope. I do not want to constantly dial wind. And I surely don’t want to be at max magnification all the time.

 

[Southern Lights]

Inside of 300 yards FFP makes little difference outside of very bad wind where you should probably get closer anyway. Also most FFP reticles are hard to see when dialed down low which is where you'll likely be in thick woods and limited ranges.

LIstening to stories from guides down here in NZ and you seem to get a number where shooters screwed up a shot by dialing, wind holds, etc. when they were inside 300, or even near 100. They should have just zeroed the scope at 2" high at 100 and put the reticle on the shoulder and pulled the trigger.

Personal experience: I was on tahr hunt and missed a perfectly good nanny at under 300 because I held slight wind off the side of the chest and missed by exactly my hold. Should have just held center and let loose. FFP or SFP wouldn't have mattered. I was simply overthinking things.

 

[anonymous22]

What you gain with FFP that you don’t understand is wind bracketing, movers, and corrections.

To make it a more simpler point, it’s a ruler that you apply to the target. Whereas a fixed or SFP are little harder to use as such.

 

[nm.otter]

If I'm taking a shot that requires figuring windage and elevation, I probably have the time to zoom

You likely won't have time -- and that's before factoring in brain/attention cycles.

 

[MuleyFever]

What you gain with FFP that you don’t understand is wind bracketing, movers, and corrections.

To make it a more simpler point, it’s a ruler that you apply to the target. Whereas a fixed or SFP are little harder to use as such.

Wind adjustment I get, if you know the adjustment. The rest just sounds good in theory, if you spot your miss. Then the question gets raised; why are you shooting at an animal you are missing completely off the animal? If I spot my miss why do we need FFP to dial a correction when I can just put the hash where the hit landed and move it to the target.

 

[anonymous22]

Wind adjustment I get, if you know the adjustment. The rest just sounds good in theory, if you spot your miss. Then the question gets raised; why are you shooting at an animal you are missing completely off the animal? If I spot my miss why do we need FFP to dial a correction when I can just put the hash where the hit landed and move it to the target.

It’s not really theory. This is literally how things are done in the military, PRS, and it crosses over to 4 legged things too. If you don’t have the time to make the shot; then you never had a shot, imo.

Wind bracketing. Not wind adjustment. Holding wind is holding wind. Wind bracketing is what helps you not miss…quick wind is a way to do it in your head. A kestrel is a way to get good data at the shooter. Max PBR, if you can’t do any of that.

However, things happen, and people DO miss.
If you think thats bad, then wait till you see most archery hunting.

To answer your question about corrections, is because again, the sub-tension isn’t correct on sfp. Which the OP understands. So on a FFP you WOULD use the reticle to make the correction. No one said anything about having to dialing.

The reticle is a ruler. Like I said.