Another Rifle Cleaning Thread

[West2East]

Apparently the barrels I get are magical because I don’t get carbon rings, or if I do they do not cause any issues, and they all maintain the same 20-30 round group size from 100’ish rounds to nearly the end of the barrels life. My barrels last as long or longer than they did when I cleaned religiously.

I'm going to do some research on this. I have never heard of the carbon ring until reading on here. Sounds like some barrels/guys get it and some don't.
I will note this gun was just in the smith shop getting the stock put on and cerakote. The smith said there was significant firecracking in the barrel. I don't have a borescope so I cannot confirm. But I can't imagine this gun has more than 200 rounds through it. It belonged to my grandpas lifelong hunting partner who passed it down to my dad when he passed a few years ago. Dad didn't need it and gave it to me. I would be surprised if there is more than 200 rounds down the barrel.
I understand the theory of overbore and "hot loads" leading to cracking and erosion. But a 300wsm shooting 180's in factory loads is far from what I would consider overbore or a hot load. Maybe I will have to get a borescope and check it out.

 

[DangerRanger]

I don’t have a dog in the fight, other than you need to document this a lot more times before you get convinced that cleaning did anything.

If you want to clean just in case no bodies stopping you either.

I have stopped cleaning my barrels to see what happens, if my 1” gun went to 4.5” I would for sure be looking for answers and am not adversed to cleaning again if it works.

 

[justinspicher]

I don’t clean a gun simply because I’m lazy. If my groups are opening up, it’s usually something I’m doing wrong.

 

[Dmoua]

I'm going to do some research on this. I have never heard of the carbon ring until reading on here. Sounds like some barrels/guys get it and some don't.
I will note this gun was just in the smith shop getting the stock put on and cerakote. The smith said there was significant firecracking in the barrel. I don't have a borescope so I cannot confirm. But I can't imagine this gun has more than 200 rounds through it. It belonged to my grandpas lifelong hunting partner who passed it down to my dad when he passed a few years ago. Dad didn't need it and gave it to me. I would be surprised if there is more than 200 rounds down the barrel.
I understand the theory of overbore and "hot loads" leading to cracking and erosion. But a 300wsm shooting 180's in factory loads is far from what I would consider overbore or a hot load. Maybe I will have to get a borescope and check it out.

Every rifle shot enough will develop a carbon ring. If there is firecracking in the barrel, there is no way that a carbon ring was not formed.

 

[Tmac]

For what it's worth, I have a very picky 30-06 who just happens to be a model 70 as well. Likes to copper foul. Wonder if it's something with their barrels. Mine is a FN CRF model.

I don’t know, but I suspect it is some combo of something about the barrel that impacts some bullets accuracy due to their construction. The picky T3X I have only has about 200 rounds down the tube. So it may settle in some.

I had a Krieger barrel in the mid 90’s on a 25-06 that did not give its best accuracy until just over 250 rounds. That 25-06 still shoots nearly any non-mono OK and some exceptionally well today. It has not had much use the last 15ish years since I got the Tikka’s. Its favored bullets have changed, presumable due to changes in the throat over 1.5k ish rounds. It’s about to get a new trigger and go chase some pronghorn over the next several years.

Most barrels anymore are very good, but some barrels are just funny.

 

[SloppyJ]

I don’t know, but I suspect it is some combo of something about the barrel that impacts some bullets accuracy due to their construction. The picky T3X I have only has about 200 rounds down the tube. So it may settle in some.

I had a Krieger barrel in the mid 90’s on a 25-06 that did not give its best accuracy until just over 250 rounds. That 25-06 still shoots nearly any non-mono OK and some exceptionally well today. It has not had much use the last 15ish years since I got the Tikka’s. Its favored bullets have changed, presumable due to changes in the throat over 1.5k ish rounds. It’s about to get a new trigger and go chase some pronghorn over the next several years.

Most barrels anymore are very good, but some barrels are just funny.

No telling but I would love to know. I have a 280ai that you have to try and shoot a bad group with. It's been that way since day 1. Not sure what the science is... guess that's why they say the barrel is a rifle's "soul".

 

[geoff995]

I recently picked up a tikka t3x chambered in 6.5 cm. Until purchasing this gun I was in the group that cleaned rifles religiously. After reading accounts on here of folks not cleaning at all, I’m going to try it on this rifle just to see what happens without any regular cleanings. I’ll try and remember to report back occasionally with round count and how the rifle is shooting. Last 20rd group through this rifle was 1.5moa at round count of 225.

 

[West2East]

Yeah, I'd love to not have to clean. It was a pain in the butt and it took me about 2 hours all told. Since I have settled on the Trophy grade ammo and plan on using ABs in reloads in the future, hopefully? Maybe, I can never clean again. But I'd like to see the groups stay around an inch for sure.

 

[Flyjunky]

I run a couple patches after every range session and deep clean every ~75 rounds. Doing it this way I never have to spend a long time when deep cleaning, makes the job much easier.

I find it interesting that many on this forum preach everything from some experts as gospel (Hornady) and yet when other experts talk about their testing with cleaning (Frank Green, Cortina, Neary, Krieger, etc) they dismiss it and say it doesn't matter.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I find it interesting that many on this forum preach everything from some experts as gospel (Hornady) and yet when other experts talk about their testing with cleaning (Frank Green, Cortina, Neary, Krieger, etc) they dismiss it and say it doesn't matter.

The Hornady guys stress maintaining and cleaning their test barrels and using velocity as a baseline. They're on the same page as the other experts in that aspect.

 

[Flyjunky]

The Hornady guys stress maintaining and cleaning their test barrels and using velocity as a baseline. They're on the same page as the other experts in that aspect.

I get that but what I'm saying is that other experts, shooters, and barrel makers who test a lot say to clean your barrel and will it keep it shooting it's best. So, why don't people on this forum take their advice like they do with hornady and their advice/testing?

 

[Lawnboi]

I used to not clean. It got me a couple times and now I clean.

I personally use bore tech products plus time.

I don’t clean to bare metal, and I don’t clean every range session. I clean between 100-300 rounds, depending on what I’m burning in it.

 

[Jimbee]

I used to not clean. It got me a couple times and now I clean.

I personally use bore tech products plus time.

I don’t clean to bare metal, and I don’t clean every range session. I clean between 100-300 rounds, depending on what I’m burning in it.

What happened with not cleaning?

 

[Formidilosus]

I find it interesting that many on this forum preach everything from some experts as gospel (Hornady) and yet when other experts talk about their testing with cleaning (Frank Green, Cortina, Neary, Krieger, etc) they dismiss it and say it doesn't matter.

Because they haven’t tested it. In the exact same sentence, the two prominent Hornady guys talking about group sizes after actually testing it, stated that you should not make declarative statements without doing rigorous testing, then immediately turned around and said “we haven’t tested it, but you need to clean your barrels”.
No one is taking what Hornady stated as gospel, it’s just that they are the first large manufacturer that actually tested their theories with rigorous and significant sample sizes. They tested the theories passed around as “known” load development methods and found out when actually tested that it’s mostly BS. I stated more than a decade ago about shot group sizes, load development nonsesne, scope reliability, bullet over cartridge, etc, etc. Because I actually “test” things instead of relying on myth and folklore.
Don’t worry, you will see “experts” in your words start coming out about barrel cleaning as well.



Frank Green stated that not cleaning a 338 Lapua or Norma barrel in 100 rounds caused it to blow up, with the inference that’s what will happen if you don’t clean them. That’s laughable.

Erik Cortina believes that 3 and 5 rounds groups are valid sample sizes, and that small insignificant changes will dramatically change precision- both are demonstrably false.

Just because someone legitimately tests something and provides good information on one subject, doesn’t mean that when they don’t test something else, that their information is still good. Most of the people you quote haven’t actually tried what they are stating doesn’t work.

 

[Flyjunky]

Because they haven’t tested it. In the exact same sentence, the two prominent Hornady guys talking about group sizes after actually testing it, stated that you should not make declarative statements without doing rigorous testing, then immediately turned around and said “we haven’t tested it, but you need to clean your barrels”. No one is taking what Hornady stated as gospel, it’s just that they are the first large manufacturer that actually tested their theories with rigorous and significant sample sizes. The tested the theories passed around as “known” load development methods and found out when actually tested that it’s mostly BS. Don’t worry, you will see people “experts” in your words start coming out about barrel cleaning as well.



Frank Green stated that not cleaning a 338 Lapua or Norma barrel in 100 rounds cause dot to blow up, with the inference that’s what will happen if you don’t clean them. That’s laughable.

Erik Cortina believes that 3 and 5 rounds grouos ar evaled sample sizes, and that small insignificant change will dramatically change precision- both are demonstrably false.

Just because someone legitimately tests something and provides good information on one subject, doesn’t mean that when they don’t test something else, that their information is still good. Most of the people you quote haven’t actually tried what they are stating doesn’t work.

You’re right, I’m sure guys who make their living shooting or building barrels don’t know what they’re talking about. I guess we’ll just disagree on that.

Two weeks ago my normal load which has an es of 17 and sd of 8 over the last 200 rounds suddenly jumped to an es of 39 and sd of 19.8 within about 7 rounds. This is out of a 6.5-284. My velocity was way up and groups opened up as well along with pressure signs.

I normally deep clean around 75 but it had been 114 rounds. Cleaned it up well and es/sd we’re back to normal with my typical groups. Anecdotal but it’s what I saw.

 

[doc holiday13]

I'm about to clean my new rifle for the first time. I'm 60 rounds in.. Main reason is to see how bad or not bad its fouling up. I'll clean again when I get to 200 rounds.. Once I'm at 200 rounds it'll get patched out either 1x per season or if it encounters extreme dirt . Then I'll clean again at 500 rounds, which will be many years down the road lol

 

[Lawnboi]

What happened with not cleaning?

My match gun turned into a shotgun after 1000 rounds (6.5 creed).

That and more stable velocity. I haven’t had an issue cleaning, I have had an issues not cleaning.

I hate cleaning guns. But I know I don’t want to ever shoot a match again where I’m guessing if I’m going to hit the target or not.

 

[Formidilosus]

You’re right, I’m sure guys who make their living shooting or building barrels don’t know what they’re talking about. I guess we’ll just disagree on that.

Appeals to authority don’t work with me- it’s a fallacy. Those guys that make their living “shooting or building barrels” that you are quoting haven’t tested what they are saying. Why would you believe something from someone that is openly telling you that they haven’t done rigorous testing to measure it?

Two weeks ago my normal load which has an es of 17 and sd of 8 over the last 200 rounds suddenly jumped to an es of 39 and sd of 19.8 within about 7 rounds. This is out of a 6.5-284. My velocity was way up and groups opened up as well along with pressure signs.
I normally deep clean around 75 but it had been 114 rounds. Cleaned it up well and es/sd we’re back to normal with my typical groups. Anecdotal but it’s what I saw.

Please show me where I have stated that there are no barrels that need cleaning? I stated in this thread that you have to do what the rifle requires, or change the barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

My match gun turned into a shotgun after 1000 rounds (6.5 creed).

Can you define “shotgun”?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Appeals to authority don’t work with me- it’s a fallacy. Those guys that make their living “shooting or building barrels” that you are quoting haven’t tested what they are saying. Why would you believe something from someone that is openly telling you that they haven’t done rigorous testing to measure it?

The Hornady guys referenced testing it and repeatedly got large increases in pressure to the extent of blowing or piercing primers after a couple hundred rounds in PRC. I don't remember which exact episode.