American Prairie loses grazing rights

[PLhunter]

I will take a big fat mallard then a prime rib .The rest make good sausage

As an aside for now. It’s interesting how much training goes into taste and craving. My kids have mostly eaten wild game for meat. During Covid my oldest grew up exclusively on wild game. My kids 7, 3 think beef taste what I can best equate to gamey. They remark that it has a weird taste. I have to agree but the weirdness goes away if I eat it a few times in a short period of time.

I’d say my oldest favorites would be:

Smoked fatty wild bison cut
Fat duck cooked rare
Cougar
Wild white meated birds with plucked chukar being the favorite (doesn’t like rotisserie chicken, much to my wallets dismay)
Deer (whole cooked ribs as favorite)
then elk (not much of a gap between deer and elk)

Store bought turkey and bacon he will eat but pretty much doesn’t like any farmed meat more than wild game.

If including fish trout and salmon up towards the top. Doesn’t like white meat fish.

Pretty much the only meat my youngest will eat is rare deer backstrap or steak. Doesn’t like burger, sausage, bacon, or chicken. He did like the cougar.

Obviously individual taste vary a ton but I think a lot of our craving for beef is just an acquired reward feedback loop from fat and protein.

 

[Marbles]

First thing I noticed is that most of the areas on that rangeland health map that red are in Nevada. Nevada has the highest wild horse population of anywhere in the state, and a fair number of burros too. It is also the driest state in the nation. I'll bet if you can zoom in, a lot of those red zones are in Churchill, Pershing, and Humboldt counties with clusters in Elko, Lander and Eureka counties. Churchill county is the driest county in the nation as far as annual rain fall. I think Pershing is second.

Like an old rancher, and I'll probably catch hell from you for quoting him, told me once: a mustang eats 3 times before a cow does. Cows are on open range allotments maybe half the year at the most. Most leases are far shorter time durations. Horses and burros are there year around. Horses graze differently than cattle, more similar to a sheep.

Its a fact that 5 horses eat the same 3 cows.

You want the rangeland to be healthy, push for more horse removal.

This thread is not about horses. But, I would have most of the wild horses removed from the land, even if that means shooting them en masse (I would prefer they be used for dog food and leather or some productive purposes rather than left to rot, but rotting is better than nothing). Some people I know would get really mad at me for saying that, but the anger is based on emotion as they love their personal horses.

Feral dogs and cats should get the same treatment, even though I like my dogs and even like my wifes cat (don't tell her I admit that). Feral hogs are the same, and I have shot them without regard to ability to recover.

 

[Marbles]

Quoting AI is hilarious. I was trying to find load data for a 6 Creedmoor with N160 and 108 ELDMs. AI told me to start with 53 gr and work up.

AI is slop, slop is for pigs, pigs are for slaughter. People who use it are either pigs, or pig farmers, with most being pigs. @Q_Sertorius may be correct that Gila is pig farming here.

 

[KurtR]

As an aside for now. It’s interesting how much training goes into taste and craving. My kids have mostly eaten wild game for meat. During Covid my oldest grew up exclusively on wild game. My kids 7, 3 think beef taste what I can best equate to gamey. They remark that it has a weird taste. I have to agree but the weirdness goes away if I eat it a few times in a short period of time.

I’d say my oldest favorites would be:

Smoked fatty wild bison cut
Fat duck cooked rare
Cougar
Wild white meated birds with plucked chukar being the favorite (doesn’t like rotisserie chicken, much to my wallets dismay)
Deer (whole cooked ribs as favorite)
then elk (not much of a gap between deer and elk)

Store bought turkey and bacon he will eat but pretty much doesn’t like any farmed meat more than wild game.

If including fish trout and salmon up towards the top. Doesn’t like white meat fish.

Pretty much the only meat my youngest will eat is rare deer backstrap or steak. Doesn’t like burger, sausage, bacon, or chicken. He did like the cougar.

Obviously individual taste vary a ton but I think a lot of our craving for beef is just an acquired reward feedback loop from fat and protein.

I grew up eating every thing with waterfowl having always been my favorite. My kid will eat any thing and if he thinks it will gross his mom out even better. Rocky mountain oysters are a favorite. I can eat smoked trout but other than that it tastes like mush mud and i have people who love it cook it got at highly regarded restaurants and still tastes like a bullhead out of a warm slough. I tried the deer ribs thought they were ok but give me a rack of baby backs on the smoker. We buy whole hogs and cut our own cuts from the hutterites and meat for making sausage. Growing up with the Germans around here they are good at sausage. Always wondered if you could make tiger meat from deer?

 

[PLhunter]

What’s apparent?

I’m genuinely interested. The dichiotomy I’ve seen is public land management vs private land management. The private will look great while the public looks like hammered dog shit.

There are definitely some exceptions to this and those exceptions has been my strongest anecdotal evidence for grazing being the primary contributor to degradation. Basically, whichever side of the fence gets grazed the hardest looks the worst. Eastern Oregon has some phenomenal looking bunch grass in areas where the private land side of the fence looks worse. Experimental public land rangelands that aren’t grazed or are heavily managed look better than most private. The area around Crowley in the Owyhee the private land side of the fence looks like shit. However, plenty of it especially around saddle mountain down there on the public side is some of the worst I’ve seen. But that’s all from long term grazing damage.

I think when you find a fenceline and notice a big difference we assume the worse side is the public but when you get out the map sometimes it isn’t.

I also don’t think it’s always a definite mark against public land or the public land managers. I think it’s more a tragedy of the commons thing. Exploit the public resource while protecting your privately owned real estate. Hard for public land managers to overcome that if the lease owner has that mindset. Not all do but I think some certainly do. I know the beer cans and wrappers being tossed on the ground during cattle drives stopped once we entered the home ranch coming off the public range.

 

[ddowning]

Really there's two packing companies for beef, because JBS owns one of the others and kept the name and Cargill or Tyson own the other.

That's an even worse situation than I thought. Hell, when it comes right down to it, Black Rock and State street own everything anyway. Who owns them, Vanguard??

 

[CJ19]

That's an even worse situation than I thought. Hell, when it comes right down to it, Black Rock and State street own everything anyway. Who owns them, Vanguard??

whats pretty funny is those are the exact type of company that more or less controls AP. Mars Inc pretty much dictates what happens financially from what I can tell from AP tax returns and whats publicly available. If Mars Inc wants every visitor to have to wear Seahawk apparel or to paint the bison in Seahawks colors, thats what would happen.

 

[WRO]

whats pretty funny is those are the exact type of company that more or less controls AP. Mars Inc pretty much dictates what happens financially from what I can tell from AP tax returns and whats publicly available. If Mars Inc wants every visitor to have to wear Seahawk apparel or to paint the bison in Seahawks colors, thats what would happen.

These companies own about everything unfortunately.

I’d bet some of them are using the APR for carbon credits etc.

 

[Sandhills]

This thread is not about horses. But, I would have most of the wild horses removed from the land, even if that means shooting them en masse (I would prefer they be used for dog food and leather or some productive purposes rather than left to rot, but rotting is better than nothing). Some people I know would get really mad at me for saying that, but the anger is based on emotion as they love their personal horses.

Feral dogs and cats should get the same treatment, even though I like my dogs and even like my wifes cat (don't tell her I admit that). Feral hogs are the same, and I have shot them without regard to ability to recover.

I get that it isn't about horses. But all this talk about cows, which are out on public lands for at the most 6 months, at much lower densities than horses, is horse shit when horses cause damage at a much higher rate.

The University of Idaho did a study on cattle grazing and sage grouse. The study showed that cattle do not negatively affect sage hens.

Horses have been linked to the decline of most Western native species. Everything from endangered flowers in Nevada to sage hens, mule deer and a plethora of other species.

And on native species, Elk have been linked to mule deer decline.

I'm beginning to wonder if the cow bashing is just because the mean old rancher told a lot of you guys not only no but hell no when you asked to hunt their place.

 

[CJ19]

These companies own about everything unfortunately.

I’d bet some of them are using the APR for carbon credits etc.

the carbon credit thing is def an angle they will if not have already explored

 

[WRO]

the carbon credit thing is def an angle they will if not have already explored

It’s a big business, I know timber companies make money selling them.

Makes sense from an income standpoint.

 

[WRO]

I get that it isn't about horses. But all this talk about cows, which are out on public lands for at the most 6 months, at much lower densities than horses, is horse shit when horses cause damage at a much higher rate.

The University of Idaho did a study on cattle grazing and sage grouse. The study showed that cattle do not negatively affect sage hens.

Horses have been linked to the decline of most Western native species. Everything from endangered flowers in Nevada to sage hens, mule deer and a plethora of other species.

And on native species, Elk have been linked to mule deer decline.

I'm beginning to wonder if the cow bashing is just because the mean old rancher told a lot of you guys not only no but hell no when you asked to hunt their place.

We have them here on the range from march to October/november and some outfits have year round.

I think there’s good and bad apples like every group.

I agree 100% that horses are significantly worse per AUM.

 

[Sandhills]

We have them here on the range from march to October/november and some outfits have year round.

I think there’s good and bad apples like every group.

I agree 100% that horses are significantly worse per AUM.

That's interesting. Most every outfit I knew of that had open range grazing allotments were out there at the maximum 6 month. A lot were less than that. Some had multiple allotments though and just switched em from on to another.

Agreed on the good and bad apples. Some of the lowest scum I've seen have been other duck hunters. But some of the nicest guys you'll meet are other duck hunters. Every system has an asshole, it's to keep the shit from backing up.

 

[Gila]

So, bison are (or were) native to the American prairie, but they're bad for it?

I never intended that…that wasn’t even written anywhere. American Prairie had to put up special fences to contain the buffalo on the grazing allotments. They paid for the fences, but none the less; Bison are difficult to contain when they can’t roam. Buffalo will attack anything in their path, especially rutting bulls will go on a rampage. A bull elk is no match for them. I have seen those bison attack trees and bushes…anything. Anyone who has spent time around bison knows this. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

 

[Gila]

So, bison are (or were) native to the American prairie, but they're bad for it?

I never intended that…that wasn’t even written anywhere. American Prairie had to put up special fences to contain the buffalo on the grazing allotments. They paid for the fences, but none the less; Bison are difficult to contain when they can’t roam. Buffalo will attack anything in their path, especially rutting bulls will go on a rampage. A bull elk is no match for them. I have seen those rutting bull bison attack trees and bushes…anything. Anyone who has spent time around bison knows this. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

 

[Gila]

Where AP’s big money comes from:

“The sales pitch has worked, over and over. American Prairie won’t release its full list of donors, citing privacy concerns, but it has received millions of dollars from some prominent philanthropists. They include a German billionaire, a handful of New York City-based investment bankers, and heirs to the Mars Candy company.”

“The idea of taking that pile of wealth and then setting oneself up as a philanthropist and engaging in a whole bunch of do-gooding projects and getting the social standing of being a donor is at some odds with the initial act of the money making,” Reich says.

Keith Anderson, American Prairie’s board treasurer, served as the chief investment officer of Soros Fund Management, whose portfolio included at least $244 million worth of stocks in the oil industry during his tenure.

George Matelich, the board’s chairman, is a senior partner at Kelso & Company, a private equity firm, which has more than 100 companies in its portfolio. They include one that explores for oil in the Gulf of Mexico, another that drilled for natural gas in Pennsylvania, and a handful of others that service extractive industries.

The Next Yellowstone: How Big Money Is Building A New Kind Of National Park

This story was supported by the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. Listen to the full documentary here.The Promise And Peril Of Environmental…

www.kuer.org

 

[WRO]

I never intended that…that wasn’t even written anywhere. American Prairie had to put up special fences to contain the buffalo on the grazing allotments. They paid for the fences, but none the less; Bison are difficult to contain when they can’t roam. Buffalo will attack anything in their path, especially rutting bulls will go on a rampage. A bull elk is no match for them. I have seen those bison attack trees and bushes…anything. Anyone who has spent time around bison knows this. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

So you're against bison because they kill elk?

 

[IdahoBeav]

I never intended that…that wasn’t even written anywhere. American Prairie had to put up special fences to contain the buffalo on the grazing allotments. They paid for the fences, but none the less; Bison are difficult to contain when they can’t roam. Buffalo will attack anything in their path, especially rutting bulls will go on a rampage. A bull elk is no match for them. I have seen those rutting bull bison attack trees and bushes…anything. Anyone who has spent time around bison knows this. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Why are you digging up a comment from 4 weeks ago to take another bite on your failed argument? This thread has ran its course.

 

[WoolOverAll]

I have seen those bison attack trees and bushes…anything.

Oh no, not the trees and bushes! Cattle do their fair share of vegetation destruction for this to even be a factor in the conversation.

The Next Yellowstone: How Big Money Is Building A New Kind Of National Park

This story was supported by the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. Listen to the full documentary here.The Promise And Peril Of Environmental…

www.kuer.org

What about this is bad for hunters? AP has been generally friendly towards hunters and has opened access to previously closed lands. I really don't see your points other than pro rancher over everything else.