Alaska Sheep, 19C Working Group

[LivinGood]

Proposal 101 by ADF&G for the upcoming statewide BOG meeting is getting sheep added to the IM species list. Lets hope the BOG approves it to get that ball rolling.

 

[Liv2HntBigBullz]

Hate to be blunt and likely unpopular opinion here but look at Colorado OTC elk, terrible idea and no doubt sheep are more delicate. Why Alaska hasn't gone to straight draw across the state with resident/non resident allocation is beyond me.

It was mentioned before but the efficiency of the 20th century hunter cannot be ignored. Resources to fly units, glassing and identification miles away and legitimate ability to shoot north of 500 yds makes the success rates unsustainable for "hunt every year" opportunity. Could you imagine the same principle applied to antelope hunting in Wyoming and the state being 90% public land? There is a reason the mathematical odds of a nonresident drawing a desert sheep tag in AZ is better than that of drawing a nonresident rifle buck antelope tag...

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[WalterH]

Hate to be blunt and likely unpopular opinion here but look at Colorado OTC elk, terrible idea and no doubt sheep are more delicate. Why Alaska hasn't gone to straight draw across the state with resident/non resident allocation is beyond me.

It was mentioned before but the efficiency of the 20th century hunter cannot be ignored. Resources to fly units, glassing and identification miles away and legitimate ability to shoot north of 500 yds makes the success rates unsustainable for "hunt every year" opportunity. Could you imagine the same principle applied to antelope hunting in Wyoming and the state being 90% public land? There is a reason the mathematical odds of a nonresident drawing a desert sheep tag in AZ is better than that of drawing a nonresident rifle buck antelope tag...

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Based on the best available science, harvest is not the problem.

To have constructive conversations we first need to define the problem(s).

If harvest isn't the problem, solutions limiting harvest make no sense.

If one of the problems identified is overcrowding and too much competition for too few animals, aka people problems, then solutions aimed at spreading people out and dividing opportunity in some sort of equitable manner make more sense.

 

[Bambistew]

While I am also not the biggest proponent of the W$F and I am not a member of them, I can at least give one example of their usefullness. They almost completely funded ADFG's sheep survey in the 16B Alaska range in 2022. Would not have happened without their $.

Besides that, I agree with every other one of your points.

I've always been under the impression that ADFG had all the funding they wanted due to PR fund match. They leave money on the table most years.

A population survey isn't real cutting edge stuff, its basic maintenance. Many areas aren't surveyed on an annual basis, some areas haven't been surveyed in many, many years. My understanding was the reason the survey was done, was to determine if they needed to close 16 along with 19... so a favorable count kept it open and the guides from 19 could bail into 16 and save their season, which a number of them did.

Don't kid yourself, that population survey wasn't for the benefit of the sheep. It resulted in more of them being converted into conservation $$$.

That survey resulted in a net negative benefit to the sheep, because more ended up dead. Pretty common theme of W$F.

 

[FAAFO]

HaPpY FuLl CuRl FrIdAy Y’aLl

 

[diamond10x]

HaPpY FuLl CuRl FrIdAy Y’aLl

Wasn't it you who posted a video from youtube of your buddy who is the king of FuLl CuRl FrIdAy?

 

[FAAFO]

Wasn't it you who posted a video from youtube of your buddy who is the king of FuLl CuRl FrIdAy?

Nope

 

[207-12A]

Based on the best available science, harvest is not the problem.

To have constructive conversations we first need to define the problem(s).

If harvest isn't the problem, solutions limiting harvest make no sense.

If one of the problems identified is overcrowding and too much competition for too few animals, aka people problems, then solutions aimed at spreading people out and dividing opportunity in some sort of equitable manner make more sense.

You may be hitting at (one of) the problem(s) though. I’m not confident that the best available science describes sheep population effects in the 21st century. Full curl management worked when a bunch of them survived each hunting season. We’re just not seeing that anymore due to winters and 21st century hunter efficacy. I see 10+ year old sheep in national parks (anecdotal not science), I don’t see them in huntable areas.

 

[WalterH]

You may be hitting at (one of) the problem(s) though. I’m not confident that the best available science describes sheep population effects in the 21st century. Full curl management worked when a bunch of them survived each hunting season. We’re just not seeing that anymore due to winters and 21st century hunter efficacy. I see 10+ year old sheep in national parks (anecdotal not science), I don’t see them in huntable areas.

Yep. The science is in bad need of updating.

 

[Kisaralik]

Small potatoes here, but I'd like to see a statewide clarifying policy update - at least for sheep - on recovering wounded animals. If we are to a point that proposals for 1 sheep every 4 years is being taken seriously than the current verbiage on recovery of wounded animals needs to be clarified.

Currently, the ADFG website (https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.wounded) states "To repeat, you are responsible for tracking and recovering every animal that you shoot. When you wound an animal, you must make every effort to track, find and kill it. If you fail to recover the animal, it could be considered part of your bag limit."

It's the "COULD BE" part that needs to change in my opinion. Sure, it would be hard to regulate, but again, if the state is moving towards decreasing resident opportunity then changes like this need to be made. (I posted something similar as moose thread and my sentiments were not unanimously shared for moose.)

 

[FAAFO]

I doubt there’s much wounding loss with sheep. I mean FFS people kill them with 6.5s

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Like @Kisaralik said, there are numerous areas that could be cleaned up on the management of hunters side of things.

There are wounding loss of sheep, as with goats. The losses I’ve personally been aware of could have been potentially limited by shooting with a 6.5 and UNDER cartridge, rather than what the avice comment alluded to.

Why is this? Because the wounded/lost sheep were shot with magnum cartridges by people who had insufficient skills, exacerbated by the tool they were using.

Also, while ADF&G enforces a 5 year waiting period in parts of Southcentral for shooting a Nanny goat, indicating high importance of protecting the resource, why on earth is that not the standard for shooting a sublegal ram.

A waiting period for shooting a sub 8 y/o that still makes full curl is also something I could get behind. Not a penalty, but perhaps a 2 year time out. Once again this would indicate the importance of not taking an animal out of the population that could even potentially still add value.

ADF&G has a responsibility to manage wildlife for the opportunity of harvesting wildlife in our state, so if they were to jump all the way to the far end of the spectrum and eliminate hunts the way that the Feds have without first implementing intermediate steps in the same vein as these, it would be a real shame.

 

[rickyw]

Change it all to bow hunting only for 10 years and see what happens

 

[FAAFO]

Like @Kisaralik said, there are numerous areas that could be cleaned up on the management of hunters side of things.

There are wounding loss of sheep, as with goats. The losses I’ve personally been aware of could have been potentially limited by shooting with a 6.5 and UNDER cartridge, rather than what the avice comment alluded to.

Why is this? Because the wounded/lost sheep were shot with magnum cartridges by people who had insufficient skills, exacerbated by the tool they were using.

Also, while ADF&G enforces a 5 year waiting period in parts of Southcentral for shooting a Nanny goat, indicating high importance of protecting the resource, why on earth is that not the standard for shooting a sublegal ram.

A waiting period for shooting a sub 8 y/o that still makes full curl is also something I could get behind. Not a penalty, but perhaps a 2 year time out. Once again this would indicate the importance of not taking an animal out of the population that could even potentially still add value.

ADF&G has a responsibility to manage wildlife for the opportunity of harvesting wildlife in our state, so if they were to jump all the way to the far end of the spectrum and eliminate hunts the way that the Feds have without first implementing intermediate steps in the same vein as these, it would be a real shame.

too easy

 

[FAAFO]

Change it all to bow hunting only for 10 years and see what happens

Lots of wounded sheep? Yeah no!

 

[AK4]

I think this is all overthinking, if the sheep in the parks are doing just as bad as the sheep in heavily hunted areas… humans are not the problem. Everyone wants a fix. Time and weather is the only hope.

 

[FAAFO]

I agree with this. Non motorized would be huge. People will have to use the quads GOD gave them!

After hunting my first sheep season I found it very difficult to get off the beaten path…

There are very few walk in non motorized areas.

The state has been pimping out its resources for years… time for a change…

What’s going to end up happening is everything will end up going to draw…

Which I hope doesn’t happen. But the draw areas seem to be fairing better.

Why doesn’t this God just fix the sheep issue? God must hate dall sheep and dall sheep hunters.

You might want to look at the draw areas a little closer after church tomorrow. Tok is down to 10 tags, delta is down and look at 13D. Not to mention the other hunts in 14.

One fact is true, sheep populations started going down with the small caliber fad took off.

Maybe wounding loss is real…

 

[WalterH]

I think this is all overthinking, if the sheep in the parks are doing just as bad as the sheep in heavily hunted areas… humans are not the problem. Everyone wants a fix. Time and weather is the only hope.

Best response so far.

Occam’s Razor. The most simple explanation is usually the right one. Paraphrased.

The real conversation needs to be about access and opportunity for hunters given the state of the sheep population and our collective lack of ability to do anything about.

Who gets to cut the pie and how does it get cut.

 

[rickyw]

Lots of wounded sheep? Yeah no!

I doubt it. Most people wouldn’t be able to stalk close enough to have a chance. JMO. But, I like the motorized only idea even better.

I think this is all overthinking, if the sheep in the parks are doing just as bad as the sheep in heavily hunted areas… humans are not the problem. Everyone wants a fix. Time and weather is the only hope.

The sheep in alaskas 14c were doing quite well, last I spoke with the biologist for that area - summer 2023

 

[207-12A]

Why doesn’t this God just fix the sheep issue? God must hate dall sheep and dall sheep hunters.

You might want to look at the draw areas a little closer after church tomorrow. Tok is down to 10 tags, delta is down and look at 13D. Not to mention the other hunts in 14.

One fact is true, sheep populations started going down with the small caliber fad took off.

Maybe wounding loss is real…

Tok/Delta areas have had some of the worst winters in the state in the past few years, see the Delta Bison herd status. I’m not a fan of the small caliber fad either, but I’m also not ready to attribute a plummet in population level numbers to the Creedmoor boys. Correlation doesn’t equal causation, check out how closely the fall of high seas piracy correlates with average global temperature levels. Did pirates secretly keep global warming at bay?

I’m sure wound loss happens, no doubt about that.