Action Design For Hunting

[goalie]

Having the ability to both lock the bolt on safe as well as cycle the bolt on safe is a good thing.

Three position safety is objectively > 2 position

It doesn't mean a rifle with a 2 position safety is unsafe or bad.

 

[grfox92]

Well you see- Guns are hard to grip without placing your finger in the trigger guard and pulling the trigger for maximum control especially when your booger picker is extra slick


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For real. I guess when it's time to unload, a lot of guys are pointing their rifles at their friends and family and maniacally running the bolt until the gun is empty. Think of Jack Nicholson in the shining, they have that look on their face when they are doing it.

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[rookieforever33]

Agree with many above that the ultimate safety of the rifle is the user. If there are mechanical designs that you prefer to "help" you remain safe, buy one of those. Chances are you will find a rifle with features you like that still outshoots you even if it isn't a mythical tikka. I have different guns, with different safety designs, I treat every one the same if its a 3 position, 2 position, hammer fired, striker fired, or slingshot. By following all fundamental rules of firearm safety.

 

[REWIND]

For anyone worried about the Tikka style safety, I think the safety design on the CZ 600s are great alternative. The vertical tang safety plus the button forward of the bolt to allow unloading on safe make it unlikely to be accidentally moved to fire position. The 600s aren’t as well received as the 550s but still a good “modern day” rifle. I have both and they perform equally well.

 

[Chris in TN]

My preference is the 3 position on model 70s. I do enjoy the fact that I can unload a 700 with the safety on.

Almost useless trivia: older 700's (I mean back in the 1970's) had an extension on the front of the safety lever that locked the bolt. I'm not sure when they switched but it was probably/maybe the late 70's or early 80's.

 

[43.6N]

I’m going to stir some sh*t up with this post, no doubt. So trigger warning if you’re trying to keep your blood pressure down.

I think the fatal flaw in the Tikka action for hunting is that it is not rock solid safe to carry a round in the chamber. If you do carry it hot, even if it’s unlikely, that safety can be flicked off and that trigger can snag on any number of things and go off. To a lesser extent, the bolt could flip open, though I have never personally had that happen.

This is the only reason I have not gone all in on a Rokstok-Tikka build. I am 1,000 percent convinced of every other argument for that action, I have had one before. It’s just as smooth as a $1,500 custom actions (maybe smoother), it’s durable, the trigger is excellent and reliable, etc etc. All undeniable.

I have a dozen or so custom’s built on 700 custom clones. They’re all collecting dust right now for the same reason. In fact, they’re probably worse in this regard. I did have a stiller long action safety get bumped going through brush once.

The best safety designs? Blaser R8 (Sauer 505 too), Ruger M77. The blaser cannot possibly fire, there is no energy in the firing pin. It is totally inert until cocked. The M77 locks all the way back and snug against the bolt. It’s not protruding, it has zero play, and you can physically see metal on metal blocking that firing pin from dropping. The edge goes to the blaser design here but I’ll argue all day the merits of the M77. They’re rock freaking solid. Unfortunately, there’s just not a lot of good aftermarket options for a modern lightweight stock.

The Winchester model 70 and any similar with the largish blade are better than tikka/remington but I’m only like 85 percent confident carrying an M70. I want to be 100 percent. The safety is always a little loose fitting and not confidence inspiring.

I’m open to the MCR Marshall whenever that comes out. I’ll buy one and try it.

So what exactly is the question you are asking?
Because here is how it is reading to me:

You don’t trust any safety that has an exposed lever? You want to use the popular tikka as the example of a poorly designed safety and the browning as an example of a good safety? You want to backpack and brush bust with a loaded gun and rely 100% on the safety to prevent ND?

OK, but people will rightly take issue with those points. Nobody can help with your confidence or trust level with any particular system.

I agree that the blaser cocking piece/safety is a mechanically great idea.
I also agree that a 3 position safety is a feature that a lot of people value.
But neither of those points lead to the conclusion that a tikka safety is inherently inadequate or dangerous.

Again to be blunt: nobody should ever be so trusting of any mechanical safety to rely on it to the exclusion of safe gun handling.

Finally, the story about my uncle is an example of negligent gun handling. Full stop. Something that everyone is at risk of regardless of the mechanical features of their gun.

 

[goalie]

I also agree that a 3 position safety is a feature that a lot of people value.
But neither of those points lead to the conclusion that a tikka safety is inherently inadequate or dangerous.

Nailed it. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[bnewt3]

EVERY. SINGLE. THING. in the world has a compromise. Convenience vs safety, performance vs cost, freedom vs security, safety vs options......everything is a compromise.

Personally I think this is a big nothing burger. Dont carry one in the chamber if it bothers you. Do some practice identifying a target, chambering a round, and getting on target. Ill bet with just a bit of training, you wont feel like you are losing anything. Especially with a slick, well-feeding rifle like a Tikka.

Quick related story:
In the Army we had a weapons maintenance day, everyone signed out their weapon to clean and verify function. We were all along the sides of a hallway in the floor doing our cleaning and one guy went to turn in his weapon(he thought he was, turns out it wasnt actually clean), as he walked by he pointed his directly at my face. I told him to get it out of my face and i got "its not loaded, relax" in reply so i grabbed the barrel and jammed the buttstock into his chest. He knew better, yet he still acted stupid and collected a stupid prize. Id like to think he didnt do it again.

 

[TaperPin]

Almost useless trivia: older 700's (I mean back in the 1970's) had an extension on the front of the safety lever that locked the bolt. I'm not sure when they switched but it was probably/maybe the late 70's or early 80's.

I think that locking feature was removed after the lawsuits. The mom that shot and killed her kid with a ricochet after returning to their vehicle and unloading his 243 (and pointing it in his direction) was probably the primary motivator. Lawyers blame that on the trigger, but the back story is rarely explained in forums. Maybe elimination of the bolt lock would have saved that kid, but so would not pointing the gun in his direction.

 

[TaperPin]

Another case that anti Remington folks don’t usually even know about is the gun that discharged while being removed from a gun case. The inexperienced person removing the gun claims his finger wasn’t on the trigger and the state law enforcement lab couldn’t get the rifle to malfunction. My bet is his finger was on the trigger - and he didn’t know enough to unload it or have the safety on.

Then there’s the case where one brother shot the other while walking. The lawyers made it about the trigger in the civil suit, but the shooter was convicted in criminal court of intentionally shooting his brother by a jury, so at least the jury didn’t believe it was the trigger.

If those are the types of cases that can bring down an entire company, there’s little hope for any firearms companies. Heck, even shooters who have never owned a Remington repeat lawsuit hysteria. The crazy thing is there are a lot of cases settled out of court we never hear about. The poor judgement within the shooting community is its own worst enemy.

 

[Thegman]

2. I have shot only five animals total. I screwed up a 6th opportunity on a cow. I’m not claiming to be an expert, I’m pulling from the experience I have had. Half of those shots were all from the off-hand. Meaning, they were relatively quick or split second scenarios. Having a safe way to carry a loaded round is important in my mind.

Sounds like you're fairly new to carrying rifles in the field while hunting (as were all were at one point or another).

IMO, the only way to carry a rifle with a chambered round is to also become OCD about very frequently checking the safety position (aside from the obvious need for muzzle control).

Relying on "nothing will happen with this particular safety design" isn't an acceptable substitute.

 

[Wprinkle]

so if the safety isn't safe...why carry with one in the chamber?
it takes 1 second to load a round...

1 second... maybe behind your back upside-down with the off hand...

 

[Kjc103]

What are you talking about?

The safety design.

 

[Kjc103]

Sounds like you're fairly new to carrying rifles in the field while hunting (as were all were at one point or another).

IMO, the only way to carry a rifle with a chambered round is to also become OCD about very frequently checking the safety position (aside from the obvious need for muzzle control).

Relying on "nothing will happen with this particular safety design" isn't an acceptable substitute.

I did carry multiple weapons (M4 and HK P2000) as a Border Patrol Agent for 9 years……through all sorts of terrain and situations, on the AZ/Mexico border.

The concept of carrying a firearm afield is certainly not new to me. You could argue that I have quite a bit of experience with this as it was a daily occurrence for me professionally. The fact is, there were a few guys that had negligent discharges with an M4. Fortunately, I never had that problem and no one was hurt. All occurred dropping the mag, thinking they cleared the round in the chamber, then pulling the trigger.

I’m not claiming to be an expert hunter. It is definitely a stretch to dismiss my point of view based on inexperience with firearms or their field use.

I very much like that I can cock, or de-cock a Blaser. I can look at it and tell exactly what the status of that rifle is visually and by feel. That, or an equivalent design, is what I want if I’m carrying the rifle loaded or expect a quick shot.

The simplicity and (likely) durability of the Tikka design over an R8 would win me over. The only issue is the safety design, along with all the practical implications that follow, is just better on the R8 or similar design.

 

[Formidilosus]

The safety design.

Ok- that still doesn’t answer the question. You are all over the map with what you are writing- what is your specific issue, and what is your concern- specifically?

 

[Thegman]

I did carry multiple weapons (M4 and HK P2000) as a Border Patrol Agent for 9 years……through all sorts of terrain and situations.

The concept of carrying a firearm afield is certainly not new to me.

So my comment should make sense to you, I'd think.

 

[robtattoo]

I'm just waiting for one of the AR hunters to chime in..

You'll hear nothing from me about AR safeties never accidentally getting bumped....



That was 2  150gr Hornadys from a Daniel Defense DDM V5 AR10. It happens.

I also have the luckiest left foot on the planet.

 

[grfox92]

You'll hear nothing from me about AR safeties never accidentally getting bumped....

View attachment 972579

That was 2  150gr Hornadys from a Daniel Defense DDM V5 AR10. It happens.

I also have the luckiest left foot on the planet.

Wow.

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[Kjc103]

Ok- that still doesn’t answer the question. You are all over the map with what you are writing- what is your specific issue, and what is your concern- specifically?

The specific issue is:

Carrying the rifle with a round in the chamber.

I’m arguing that there are legitimate reasons one would need to do that.

I do not believe the Tikka design is secure enough for me to carry it with a round in the chamber.

I then point to two other designs that I feel are.

 

[Thegman]

You'll hear nothing from me about AR safeties never accidentally getting bumped....

View attachment 972579

That was 2  150gr Hornadys from a Daniel Defense DDM V5 AR10. It happens.

I also have the luckiest left foot on the planet.

You are now officially the poster child for my above comment...

At least your muzzle control wasn't as bad as it could have been. Do you have a picture of the boots/shoes you were wearing?