A Problem with Guides

[Gaddyman]

Hi yall,

Im writing this bc of the past seasons and what iv experienced. Im curious if people have had the same experiences. I had multiple run ins with guides that either one would ruin the hunt or was an overall bad experience talking with them.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the growing tension between guided hunting operations and the average hunter, and I think it’s worth having a more informed conversation about it.

There is the issue of localized pressure. While overall harvest quotas are managed per unit, they don’t always reflect how concentrated hunting activity becomes in specific, accessible public land areas. Research and field reports have shown that heavy, repeated pressure in the same zones can alter animal movement patterns, increase nocturnal behavior, and reduce opportunities for DIY hunters who rely on limited time and fewer resources to use. Public land is, by definition, a shared resource—but in practice, some guided operations effectively dominate high-quality areas through repeated use, and early occupation of key terrain. What I mean by this is when guides are non stop having clients and dominating a certain area they are making it extremely difficult for the avg Joe to hunt the same area. For example if you have valley A that has all the deer, elk, whatever and an avg Joe finds it, hes gonna hunt, kill his animal and leave. Now someone else might be hunt that same area and not have to deal with Joe due to him being 1 and done. Now take that same senario and put a guide in that picture. He is gonna have his books full and hunt that same valley or area repeatedly until the season is over. If another person wants to hunt that area he has to deal with repeated pressure from the guide and the clients he has out While not illegal, this can create a de facto exclusivity that undermines the principle of equal access.I get that people buy their tags, but now that guide is making profit off of the shared resource. Now im sure someone is gonna bring up the fact guides pay more for their licensing, but does that really compensate for the amount of people that would just go buy a tag and hunt on their own or with a friend/ mentor? I should clarify Im talking about public land guides in this case. I get there is money that comes from guides that helps toward conservation, but is it worth ruining the experiences/ opportunity of the avg person? You can say well guides help newer people get into the sport, and ill admit yes that is true.

Additionally when it comes to waterfowl hunting. You can never find a farmer to give permission now. Every piece is locked up or the farmer had a bad experience with a guide and wont let hunters on his land anymore. I had a guide drive up onto my own land and tell me,(not knowing i own the place), "you better get out of here. im hunting this border tm and have 8 clients coming out" Told me to pack my shit and trespassed. People come from out of state hoping for a DIY hunt now and cant even do that bc of the guides that lock places down. We have guides in our area that once they hear that a blind shoots good, offer an insane amount of money and then boom that place is locked.

I had a run in with a guide that literally ran us off the trail with his horses. He wouldn't let us use the spring at camp bc he had a pvc pipe in it to collect water better. We ran into several hikers that reported to us they had the same experience with this guide and it left a sour taste in my mouth. Additionally we had heard throughout our time there 15-20 shots a day from the guides. Later while glassing, we could see them on a ridge, taking multiple 800 yard plus shots with clients. We found 4 bucks with limps/ what looked like holes in there rear. We found one buck that we watched for days and confirmed he had been shot in the rear gut from these long distance shots. Im sure not all guides are like this and im sure their are some great public land guides that are genuine good dudes, but it brought alot of questions in my head that i wanted to share. I just feel as if with how popular hunting is becoming that there is this constant need/ new level of competition that is causing some guides to now ruin or get rid of DIY hunters. Dont get me wrong there is also hunter on hunter issues as well.

 

[CaseyRyback]

I’m not sure there is a solution to arseholes. They exist in all aspects of life. As far as the run in you had with the guide, I’d ignore them. Of
course I’d be courteous but I’m not “asking permission” for anything on public land. You shouldn’t either. It only reinforces their behavior.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I’m not sure there is a solution to arseholes. They exist in all aspects of life

This.

 

[Choupique]

Guided hunting and fishing services shouldnt exist at all, IMO.

Id be fine in theory with them operating on private land but we all know how that would go, so I say it should be done away with all together. You want to hunt or fish? Good. Figure it out.

 

[mt terry d]

My favorite elk bowhunting area had a big meadow the elk would come into overnight.
Then they'd head back up a north facing thick timbered slope to daytime.
One year an outfitter set his camp right in the middle of that meadow. Moron.

Another year we used a 4 wheeler to bring in a camp. Killed a bull a few hundred yards from the trail,
backpacked the elk to the trail where the 4 wheeler was parked.
Guide with clients rides up as we're getting there. he's all pissy, says it's illegal to have 4 wheeler.
I tell him to piss off, I know for a fact it's legal. He backs down.
Reported him to the FS.

No, they're not all like that.

 

[Weldor]

Seems scenarios like yours has become the norm, instead of a rarity. I see it every year as pressure increases for fewer tags. We have them set up camp in August and they are still there after the late season in December. Never see a permit posted .

 

[Tobe_B]

Guided hunting and fishing services shouldnt exist at all, IMO.

Id be fine in theory with them operating on private land but we all know how that would go, so I say it should be done away with all together. You want to hunt or fish? Good. Figure it out.

That seems like a hard swing to one side. There are a lot of good guides and outfitters that get new hunters going on a good path. To do away with the entire industry all together seems harsh.

However, I’ll caveat that with saying there should be harsher penalties on crappy outfitters and guides, a little more enforcement would go a long way. The issue with that being it’s generally a he said she said situation with no way to prove who actually did what.

 

[Weldor]

Strange assumption's that guided hunts are for novice hunters. Just sayin.

 

[Choupique]

There are a lot of good guides and outfitters

Yep. I know some.

I dont like the idea behind the institution as a whole. There are many people in that industry who I like, a couple I would call close friends. If I were king of the world, it would be restricted to private land only.

 

[velvet muley]

I've had a couple good run ins with guides but have had more bad ones.

Had one try to run us out of a basin we were hunting in because he had been watching a bull for a client for months, he tried everything. I told him to pound sand, we were up there first for context.

Had another block a road with his camp and put a chain on a public gate that looked locked but wasn't. He tried to tell us it was private, I also told him to pound sand and drove around his camp.

Don't let people like that get away with intimidation, all it does is empower them.

 

[velvet muley]

I wouldn't say that guiding on public land should be banned but there should definitely be tighter restrictions with it.

For one there should be a max number of guides for a hunter, this B.S. of having 10 guides on every glassing knob for one hunter on public is not fair chase. They restrict all sorts of things like cameras, technology, etc.

That should also be restricted.

 

[mntnguide]

If you witness a guide/outfitter doing illegal or unethical things, documenting it and calling the state outfitter board is a very easy thing to do. You can also call the local warden. On forest service land, at least in most western states, and outfitter is TOLD where they can put there camp, they do not have a choice where that is, it is determined by forest circus.

There are hundreds of people a year who want to experience a true backcountry wilderness horseback type hunt, which is not possible without public land guides/outfitters and will always be an available option. There a terrible people in every industry in the world from contracting to plumbing to financial advising etc. Thinking that every outfitter and guide is a bad person is a pretty ignorant way of going about life.

I spent 10 years in the industry and the outfits I worked for were all ran by great people who do it for the passion of working with horses in the mountains. They arent wealthy and rich, they work hard to make a living. I havent guided in a long time, and i make a great living in the powerline industry, so im just as much a DIY hunter as anyone reading this. But i also understand both sides of the equation. But, I can assure you complaining on an internet forum, instead of filing an actual complaint with the state outfitting board if you actually witnessed unethical behavior, will never result in things getting better.

 

[Tobe_B]

Strange assumption's that guided hunts are for novice hunters. Just sayin.

That’s definitely true too. We pack in the same group of guys to the same spots year after year. They have all their own gear and areas, wildly successful, and some going on 30 years in the same camping place. They just don’t own or have an interest in owning horses for the one week a year they need them.

 

[Elkman17]

Guiding on public land should be illegal. It’s really that simple

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Guided hunting and fishing services shouldnt exist at all, IMO.

Id be fine in theory with them operating on private land but we all know how that would go, so I say it should be done away with all together. You want to hunt or fish? Good. Figure it out.

If a person hunts public land long enough and runs into enough guides with poor behavior this will likely be their inevitable opinion.

We’ve hunted a drainage/area that is heavily outfitted for the majority of archery. Between 2017 and 2022 six bulls were taken from that drainage between the 3 of us average joes. In 2021, on the last pack out my buddy had his bull head and antlers over his shoulders as we packed it down the outfitter trail we had discovered and used for that hunt. They had one client with them and it was interesting to see the excitement of the client versus the somewhat envy of the guides. I called that bull in and it’s hard to explain the feeling looking at the guide and client knowing we pulled off what guys are paying thousands of dollars for at just the cost of gas and a $20 elk tag (and a bit more sweat as we don’t use horses). They were cordial and we haven’t had any issues with them and have had years now where they tag and we don’t and vice versa. We don’t camp near them and they have two designated camps. There is plenty of space and we actually think the outfitter works to our benefit as we rarely see any average joes there so suspect people know there is an outfitter in there and stay away but that’s just a thought.

Of course I jinxed our spot and wrote this article so we haven’t killed in there since 2022, but have also not hunted it super hard the past few years.

The Age of the Honey Hole

Honey Hole (noun): Named after a beehive for its honey, slang for a location that yields a valued commodity or resource, which, in this case, is bull elk. Arthur J. Stephens Honey Hole, a term often thrown around by public land hunters when referencing areas that hold game consistently from year...

rmef.org

 

[Weldor]

If you witness a guide/outfitter doing illegal or unethical things, documenting it and calling the state outfitter board is a very easy thing to do. You can also call the local warden. On forest service land, at least in most western states, and outfitter is TOLD where they can put there camp, they do not have a choice where that is, it is determined by forest circus.

There are hundreds of people a year who want to experience a true backcountry wilderness horseback type hunt, which is not possible without public land guides/outfitters and will always be an available option. There a terrible people in every industry in the world from contracting to plumbing to financial advising etc. Thinking that every outfitter and guide is a bad person is a pretty ignorant way of going about life.

I spent 10 years in the industry and the outfits I worked for were all ran by great people who do it for the passion of working with horses in the mountains. They arent wealthy and rich, they work hard to make a living. I havent guided in a long time, and i make a great living in the powerline industry, so im just as much a DIY hunter as anyone reading this. But i also understand both sides of the equation. But, I can assure you complaining on an internet forum, instead of filing an actual complaint with the state outfitting board if you actually witnessed unethical behavior, will never result in things getting better.

Agreed, I and a few friends have filed complaint's only to be told , ( I'm the only FS employee for this huge area, don't have time etc.) And on the other hand had a supervisor fly down and open a gate that was illegally locked by an outfitter. The wardens here are about the same unfortunately. I don't mean that as a ding , they are just understaffed.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

That’s definitely true too. We pack in the same group of guys to the same spots year after year. They have all their own gear and areas, wildly successful, and some going on 30 years in the same camping place. They just don’t own or have an interest in owning horses for the one week a year they need them.

Are you actually guiding them on their hunts or just my providing the supporting pack stock? I know it’s technically considered guiding to do both in most areas but that’s also probably another distinction I’m not sure the OP made and from what I read is mostly writing about full-guide/outfit where they are providing the meals, lodging (wall tent), horses and then going out 1on1 or 1on2 guide to hunter to call, spot and get the hunter a shot opportunity.

I think just providing the stock and support mitigates some of the territorial and envious feelings guides get towards DIYers as the expectation for a harvest is likely not the same and if a hunter fails to harvest it’s on them, not the guide that just took $5k+ from them.

 

[Tobe_B]

Another point I think most guys don’t think about. Outfitters pay a portion of their gross income to the forest service district they work in. That money goes directly to the management of that district. Given the funding cuts to the forest service, that isn’t inconsequential to management of public lands.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

If you witness a guide/outfitter doing illegal or unethical things, documenting it and calling the state outfitter board is a very easy thing to do. You can also call the local warden. On forest service land, at least in most western states, and outfitter is TOLD where they can put there camp, they do not have a choice where that is, it is determined by forest circus.

There are hundreds of people a year who want to experience a true backcountry wilderness horseback type hunt, which is not possible without public land guides/outfitters and will always be an available option. There a terrible people in every industry in the world from contracting to plumbing to financial advising etc. Thinking that every outfitter and guide is a bad person is a pretty ignorant way of going about life.

I spent 10 years in the industry and the outfits I worked for were all ran by great people who do it for the passion of working with horses in the mountains. They arent wealthy and rich, they work hard to make a living. I havent guided in a long time, and i make a great living in the powerline industry, so im just as much a DIY hunter as anyone reading this. But i also understand both sides of the equation. But, I can assure you complaining on an internet forum, instead of filing an actual complaint with the state outfitting board if you actually witnessed unethical behavior, will never result in things getting better.

Well said.

 

[velvet muley]

If you witness a guide/outfitter doing illegal or unethical things, documenting it and calling the state outfitter board is a very easy thing to do. You can also call the local warden. On forest service land, at least in most western states, and outfitter is TOLD where they can put there camp, they do not have a choice where that is, it is determined by forest circus.

There are hundreds of people a year who want to experience a true backcountry wilderness horseback type hunt, which is not possible without public land guides/outfitters and will always be an available option. There a terrible people in every industry in the world from contracting to plumbing to financial advising etc. Thinking that every outfitter and guide is a bad person is a pretty ignorant way of going about life.

I spent 10 years in the industry and the outfits I worked for were all ran by great people who do it for the passion of working with horses in the mountains. They arent wealthy and rich, they work hard to make a living. I havent guided in a long time, and i make a great living in the powerline industry, so im just as much a DIY hunter as anyone reading this. But i also understand both sides of the equation. But, I can assure you complaining on an internet forum, instead of filing an actual complaint with the state outfitting board if you actually witnessed unethical behavior, will never result in things getting better.

I agree there are good and bad of every business out there.

As far as turning people in I gave up on that avenue, I have done it in the past with land owners an a guide and it's always the same result. " I can't do anything about it unless I catch them in the act."

Had a private land owner hazing elk last year with a spot light running his truck back and forth to keep the elk on his property, they come down into public to feed almost everyday. Turned him in and was told "well I guess I can go talk to him but I won't be able to do anything about it."