A bill to set aside 2550 tags for wealthy nonresident landowners is being proposed in Montana

OP
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Lol....your math is spurious at best! The biggest thing that sticks out is 30 million acres you are using as your baseline....how much of that 30 million actually has elk on it?

Not that it even matters. The point is this WILL decrease pressure on public. I agree it won't be a significant decrease, but it absolutely will decrease.

And I also want to be clear....I'm not in favor of this bill. I'm also not opposed to it. I really don't care one way or the other whether this passes. What I DO care about is the 66 thousand NR deer and elk hunters we had last year in this state when we intended that number to be no more than 17.5K. Since you like math so much that works out to 3.8 times the number that we agreed to allow into this state through legislative action.

Once that issue is addressed I'll start worrying about this stuff for you DIY guys.
Then take it up with your state the fact that many B tags are unlimited or OTC for nonresidents.

That’s 100% different issue than automatic allocation of tags to nonresident landowners.

Again if it forced them into the block management game and actually increased net opportunity for residents and nonresidents alike and actually helped crowding I’d be singing a different tune.
 
OP
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That sure is true. Same could be said about ones morals and political beliefs. People that claim to be "conservative" and libertarian minded sure seem to talk to talk in 2A and economic threads, but their inner Bernie sure comes out in force in these NR allocation and private landowner threads.

We can all have it all, we just can't have it all at once - at least not without sacrificing political consistency and stepping across our moral and ethical boundaries. I particularly don't like the assumption that we're only talking about rich landowners here. Someday I will be a landowner of family ranch land in a state I'm not a resident in. Under the current regulations I will likely never hunt big game on that land. I certainly won't be able to hunt a few species on it. That's fine in my book if that's how the state wants to do things. But it sure begs the question that if NR tags are available in the unit why someone from Florida has the same process and odds of getting a NR tag as me while I'm providing habitat and tax rev and they're just showing up for a week to never come back until the state once again gives them something in return.
I have zero issue being 100% pro gun and largely favorable toward smaller government and realizing that government plays a vital role in wildlife conservation and that the North American model only really works if wildlife is considered publicly owned and democratically allocated.

Real life isn’t black and white, or red or blue in this circumstance.
 
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So make it if your a Non-Resident (not a citizen of that state) and pay property taxes on land in that state you get a tag to hunt your property if you own 1 acre or a million ? I asked above where the magical 2500 acre number came from . Does anyone know ?
 

pirogue

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I think 2500 ac minimum is a lot for landowner tags... Owning damn near 4 square miles and not being able to hunt it annually would be a kick in the crotch. Hell I would be mad if I had any amount of land that deer/elk/antelope were using in a typical year and didn't have a reasonable way to hunt.
That’s one reason people buy suppressors.
 

Btaylor

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I have zero issue being 100% pro gun and largely favorable toward smaller government and realizing that government plays a vital role in wildlife conservation and that the North American model only really works if wildlife is considered publicly owned and democratically allocated.

Real life isn’t black and white, or red or blue in this circumstance.
At least in DC Red and Blue is looking more and more purple all the time with regard to actions. I do agree with @bsnedeker in one specific rea that he has mentioned and that is NR's receiving more tags than the cap. As a broad stroke statement I think that is a huge issue across the west. States need to set unit caps for harvest and set a pct or fixed number allocation for R/NR, I'm just going to call it 80/20 with a cap for example. Eliminate OTC and have a first and second draw. Any unissued tags at that point stay unissued for that year. Do away with all points programs and make it all random draw, all western states. Everyone at that point would have equal opportunity to draw a tag and it seems like it would spread the pressure as well. Give folks 3-5 years or something as phase out for accumulated points with the ability to shift points to different species so they can use the points. It wont work if all states dont buy in and we all know that isnt going to happen. Feds probably could force it for federal lands though.
 
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The whole "b" tag /unlimited tag thing is the state cashing in on selling as many tags as possible "under the table" . Most dont even pay attention to it . As above advertise 17, 500 tags vs reality 66,000
 

IdahoBeav

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So we have landowners that are getting extorted for what is called property taxes, and we have the nonresidents that merely pay the nonresident license fees? It sounds like the number of tags should be much greater than 2,550.
 
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I have zero issue being 100% pro gun and largely favorable toward smaller government and realizing that government plays a vital role in wildlife conservation and that the North American model only really works if wildlife is considered publicly owned and democratically allocated.

Real life isn’t black and white, or red or blue in this circumstance.
I simply believe in federalism and that wildlife belongs to the state. End of story, the debate is over, close the book. I have points all over. I have a sister in MT and was planning a hunt in the near future. All this modification of allocation in all these states has the same negative impact on me and it does suck. However, I will stand behind my morals and be consistent that states such as MT should be able to allocate their wildlife however they want. I would assume a purest to the NAMWC like yourself would agree to that sentiment since the bedrock of the NAMWC is Public Trust Doctrine as defined in Martin vs. Waddell (the public maintains a common right to fish in navigable and tidal water because those waters and their underlying lands were kept in trust by the state for the common use of the people). In Greer vs. Connecticut, the court expanded PTD to include wildlife. Furthermore, the model lists private land owners and mangers as a key stakeholders in upholding the model. You're right, it isn't black and white; at least not so much that we get to cherry pick the parts of the model we like. It's extremely complex.

Careful what you wish for. If national politics shift back red in a couple of years, I expect some very anti-federal lands legislations coming down the pipe from all the historic places and some new ones. Places like Alaska are quickly jumping on board and it's only gaining speed. Residents of the west are getting sick and tired of the federal government driving the boat in their state. The sentiment now basically across the AK hunting community is that it's time to get the federal government out of our house and there is some real movement on it.
 
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Im with you on property extortion . They need to clarify whether you get a tag based on residency vs paying property taxes as a Non -resident of a state . Wouldnt it be"fair" for ALL non resident taxpaying land owners vs those that own more than 2500 acres.
 

Scoot

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Maybe quit crying about what you think you don’t have and be grateful for what you do have.
I'm anything but a whiner- I'm grateful as hell for a whole ton of things in my life. But... sounds like you think I should be just thrilled that MT is more than happy to stick to NR DIY hunters. I'm grateful for lots of things, but certainly not for getting bent over for preferential treatment of the rich. If you think I should be tolerant, even happy, about this deal... you're wrong and I'd argue you are the one who just isn't getting the big picture here.
 

bsnedeker

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I'm anything but a whiner- I'm grateful as hell for a whole ton of things in my life. But... sounds like you think I should be just thrilled that MT is more than happy to stick to NR DIY hunters. I'm grateful for lots of things, but certainly not for getting bent over for preferential treatment of the rich. If you think I should be tolerant, even happy, about this deal... you're wrong and I'd argue you are the one who just isn't getting the big picture here.

Montana isn't sticking it to anyone because no one is forcing you to hunt here. Go hunt other western states if you feel this strongly about how awful Montana is. I can promise you no one from this state is going to come knocking on your door to coerce you into applying here.

Like it or not, our goal is get less crowded public lands to hunt. The easiest and fastest way to do that is to reduce NR opportunity. If that bothers you...oh well. Hunt elk in your own state!

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OP
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Montana isn't sticking it to anyone because no one is forcing you to hunt here. Go hunt other western states if you feel this strongly about how awful Montana is. I can promise you no one from this state is going to come knocking on your door to coerce you into applying here.

Like it or not, our goal is get less crowded public lands to hunt. The easiest and fastest way to do that is to reduce NR opportunity. If that bothers you...oh well. Hunt elk in your own state!

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If you were really worried about crowding, you’d be more worried about habitat and block management incentives and less about nonresidents.

All this bill is going to do is make Montana ranch land that much more attractive and valuable to wealthy nonresidents, drive up real estate costs even further, and price out Montana ranchers that might have otherwise enrolled in block management. It’s likely going to make public land crowding worse not better.

It’s literally cutting your nose off to spite your face.
 

bsnedeker

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If you were really worried about crowding, you’d be more worried about habitat and block management incentives and less about nonresidents.

All this bill is going to do is make Montana ranch land that much more attractive and valuable to wealthy nonresidents, drive up real estate costs even further, and price out Montana ranchers that might have otherwise enrolled in block management. It’s likely going to make public land crowding worse not better.

It’s literally cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Lol... why would you assume that I'm not doing all of those things? I send more letters to my congressman than they have time to read my dude.

None of the letters advocate for increasing NR opportunity FYI.

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OP
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Lol... why would you assume that I'm not doing all of those things? I send more letters to my congressman than they have time to read my dude.

None of the letters advocate for increasing NR opportunity FYI.

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Perhaps if you had a different attitude about nonresidents you’d have more allies in those fights.

I agree that B tags are way too easy to come by in many parts of Montana. That’s a separate discussion however. This bill is bad for Montana residents and nonresident DIY hunters alike IMO.

At the very least it needs to be amended to incentivize public access in exchange for increased nonresident landowner opportunity.

As it stands now, it’s a terrible bill for nearly everyone except for out of state landowners with 2500 acres or more. If I were you, I’d be pissed my representatives are apparently more concerned with nonresident donors than their voters.
 

Scoot

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Montana isn't sticking it to anyone because no one is forcing you to hunt here. Go hunt other western states if you feel this strongly about how awful Montana is. I can promise you no one from this state is going to come knocking on your door to coerce you into applying here.

Like it or not, our goal is get less crowded public lands to hunt. The easiest and fastest way to do that is to reduce NR opportunity. If that bothers you...oh well. Hunt elk in your own state!

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Bsnedeker, my comment, and the comment I was responding to, wasn't about less for NRs (and subsequently more for Rs), it was about tags being set aside for the wealthy.

I'm 100% in favor of states taking good care of their residents. I'm also 100% against states giving wealthy people preferentially available tags.
 

bsnedeker

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Bsnedeker, my comment, and the comment I was responding to, wasn't about less for NRs (and subsequently more for Rs), it was about tags being set aside for the wealthy.

I'm 100% in favor of states taking good care of their residents. I'm also 100% against states giving wealthy people preferentially available tags.
Do you think I should be upset that "wealthy landowners" who own property in unit 380 get to hunt the Elkhorns almost every year? I could apply for that tag every year for my entire life and never draw it, but because these folks have property they can hunt it every year... should I be outraged about that?

Because I'm not.

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Scoot

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Well... if you're in favor of wealthy people getting better access to public resources simply because their wealthy... then we see the world differently. It's not about R or NR, it's about preferential treatment of the rich.
 

sndmn11

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People who own property aren't automatically rich. Just because someone has something that you don't doesn't mean they are wealthy, rich, or owe you something. It just means this is a capitalist country and you made different life decisions than the other person.

I find it terribly ironic and sad that it's the same handful of people bringing up these grievances with various states. Using terms like "we" and "us" but only managing to promote a division in their effort to elk hunting socialism.

Ex: @bsnedeker has said he doesn't care one way or another about this bill and lives in MT. @BuckeyeRifleman is going after him like he is an enemy, and is probably annoying him into choosing that side.
 
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