9mm Buffalo Bore 147gr +p vs G9 124gr +p woodsmen for Predator defense?

[260284]

FYI...P365 does not like hot/heavy hardcast loads in my experience. I have 3 p365 pistols and none are fans of +p heavy/hardcast loads from both buffalo bore and Underwood. I got a response from Underwood that SIG specifically does not recommend heavy +p rounds in the p365 chassis despite the only info I can find from them stating the p365 will handle factory +p loads. Underwood was the worst of the two but I had cycling issues from both.
Mine will all shoot any other +p jacketed or hollow point rd I've tried just fine, but the heavy (over 127gr) lead stuff has had feeding issues in all 3 of mine so I avoid it...practice extensively with what you plan to carry, POI shift was notable for me on the hot/heavy loads that did cycle.
They all cycle +p 124gr copper jacket flat nose rds perfectly fine. Not sure what it is about hot heavy rds in the p365, but im not the only one to have issues there.

I have shot the Underwood 147 cast in my 365 and it fed and shot them the best of any ammo I have tried in it. I am using their coated version though.

 

[Dan Carey]

You would think those heavy loads would be slamming that little pistol around pretty good, to say nothing about that stock spring.

 

[StuckInTheEast]

I have shot the Underwood 147 cast in my 365 and it fed and shot them the best of any ammo I have tried in it. I am using their coated version though.

Was using the same. Two different batches, did the same thing.
Was leaving tiny rings of the case in the chamber, next round wouldn't feed. I figured it was the gun. Tried in my two others, an xl and another standard 365, same results.
I was told directly by Underwood they do not recommend that ammo in the P365, nor does sig recommend the use of heavy hardcast +p loads in the 365platform...I got no such verification from Sig.
The copper jacket flat nose 124gr +p from Underwood works flawlessly, so Ive just stuck with those.
I had similar failure to feed issues with the Buffalo bore but without the tiny ring of case material left in the bore. Maybe im just lucky and got 4 bad boxes/batches of ammo...and yes, I clean my guns properly and regularly.

 

[RockAndSage]

@Brightside , given that you're researching new ammo, thought this thread might be of interest to you.

 

[Brightside]

@Brightside , given that you're researching new ammo, thought this thread might be of interest to you.

Thanks man!

 

[RockAndSage]

@Formidilosus , have you heard or seen much on the efficacy of fluted bullets like these on any kind of animals?

 

[Steve300xcw]

If I'm buyin that sorta ammo. I like to send this dude my money

9mm+P 148 grain Hard Cast Flat Point "Predator Penetrator", Velocity 1100 FPS (100 RND)

Free Shipping on orders of 100 rds or more. The 9mm 148 grain +P flat nose hard cast outdoors / animal defense ammo. 1100 FPS. This deep penetrating load is oriented towards those who want to use their carry gun or home defense gun on the trail, or while hunting, for defense against predators...

www.lostriverammocompany.com

 

[CoMulies]

@Formidilosus , have you heard or seen much on the efficacy of fluted bullets like these on any kind of animals?

Garand thumb does a 9mm penetration test vid here (LINK) on ballistics gel with the Lehigh round and a few others. Not sure how that translates to a bear however..

 

[RockAndSage]

Not sure how that translates to a bear however..

Yeah, that's the same problem I have. Properly formulated ballistics gel is a pretty good proxy, but not an absolute, so the more real-world info that's out there the better. Woodleigh has been doing a dangerous-game variant of these fluted bullets for awhile, that uses the same hydro-cutting concept but doesn't do the flutes, that seems to have a decent reputation in Africa's dangerous-game hunting community. But I'm still a bit iffy on trusting fluted pistol-bullets going at pistol speeds.

 

[CoMulies]

Yeah, that's the same problem I have. Properly formulated ballistics gel is a pretty good proxy, but not an absolute, so the more real-world info that's out there the better. Woodleigh has been doing a dangerous-game variant of these fluted bullets for awhile, that uses the same hydro-cutting concept but doesn't do the flutes, that seems to have a decent reputation in Africa's dangerous-game hunting community. But I'm still a bit iffy on trusting fluted pistol-bullets going at pistol speeds.

Not an expert by any means and I’ve never shot a bear with a pistol, but I’ve done a good amount of reading on what people who have say on the subject. Consensus seems to be that a heavy, hard cast load with a flat meplat is going to penetrate deeper and straighter than a lighter round moving faster.

I personally carry 305 grains of .44 mag in Grizz country, but if I had to carry 9, it’d be a flat nosed +p 147.

 

[Custureri]

I'm quite partial to 124 + p in my 9 mm ( Sig 365 x macro with Romeo X compact)-- though my primary hunting pistol is a Sig 320 comp 10 mm. This is mainly because it's what I carry daily and most proficient with. I'm extremely partial to Underwood Ammo and their Extreme Hunters for my first five rounds in all magazines for the field. The additional rounds are XTPs. My recent hunt in Marfa Texas, I killed two coyotes from the helicopter with the 10 mm, and an additional 2 hogs with my 9 mm stalking from the ground. I tend to Creek walk with my lever, but they came up quick and drew the pistol instead. 7 rounds fired, 2 dead hogs. I tend to go for the neck, and if charging head on, I aim for the lower part of the snout as almost always your rounds will tend to rise during multiple shots.

regarding black bears, I've only ever fired one warning shot and scared it off.

Federal 147 hardcast works great and a 9 mm, I just prefer a little more power behind it.

 

[BLJ]

Wonder if there is a significant difference in penetration between the 115 class and the 147?
And if there is, does the increased penetration of the heavier bullet justify the greater recoil and getting back in target for more shots?

Is the recoil of the 147’s substantially more than the 115’s? No experience with them.

 

[Custureri]

Wonder if there is a significant difference in penetration between the 115 class and the 147?
And if there is, does the increased penetration of the heavier bullet justify the greater recoil and getting back in target for more shots?

Is the recoil of the 147’s substantially more than the 115’s? No experience with them.

if you train with it, and have good mechanics under pressure, it's not that noticeable. if you're comparing a 115 + p to a 147 grain, I find it about equal. It's still a 9 mm and relatively easy to shoot. Training with the gun your intending to hunt with is far more critical than the round you are using. The 147 carries more mass albeit at a slower rate. in some cases, the 115 May likely penetrate more based on the bullet.

On the subject of training, make sure you buy boxes of your hunting rounds and use them at the range. It's a cheaper lesson overall then trying to switch from FMJ training ammo to hard casts and HPs and diagnosing why rounds are not on target. also, don't try to conserve by doing one shot at a time, practice shot strings at varying distances to see how the groups open to help you determine what your best with, and what your gun prefers.

 

[RockAndSage]

Is the recoil of the 147’s substantially more than the 115’s? No experience with them.

In standard target/ball loadings, there's almost zero perceptible difference between 115s, 124s, and 147s. What makes a big difference is how hot they've been loaded. 147gr target ammo is noticeably softer in recoil than 147gr Federal HSTs, for example, and +P loadings in any weight generally feel even snappier and harder-hitting in your hand. You can also tell the difference in what a hot load is doing with slide velocity - casings from hotter loads can eject up to 50% further out than target loads in a lot of guns.

 

[BLJ]

Wonder if a 147 grain FMJ flat point target load would be a good middle ground?
Heavy for caliber contributing to deeper penetration without the recoil of +p or +p+?

 

[RockAndSage]

Wonder if a 147 grain FMJ flat point target load would be a good middle ground?
Heavy for caliber contributing to deeper penetration without the recoil of +p or +p+?

That's a really great question, and it's related to one I go back-and-forth on with defensive ammo - do I value controllability more, or penetration more, and is there enough of a tradeoff to be worth it for EDC?

I've typically preferred heavy and hotter, but lately I've been re-thinking that quite a bit. And, starting to lean towards some of the standard-pressure 124gr HST loads for EDC, rather than +p. Still not sure what the best answer is, but I'll probably have to put at least a few hundred downrange side-by-side before I settle in on anything. For now, standard-pressure 147gr HSTs work great though.

 

[Custureri]

Wonder if a 147 grain FMJ flat point target load would be a good middle ground?
Heavy for caliber contributing to deeper penetration without the recoil of +p or +p+?

You're overthinking to be honest. Ballistically speaking coming from a 9 mm, it's not that much difference. The difference between hardcast and standard flat FMJ is going to be hardness of the bullet--in a 9 mm it doesn't matter. I like coated lead when hunting for animals that have a more dense structure. I don't like flat nose for smaller varmints. Stay away from cheaper rounds as it will foul up your barrel quick.

I've taken quite a few medium sized hogs, bobcats, and a plethora of raccoons with 124, 124+p, standard 115, 147, 147+p hardcast and HP. As mentioned in a previous post, my first 3-5 five shots are typically hardcast, followed by the remaining 124 XTP (non+p) in 9mm. Both have done the trick quite well.

9mm Luger 124gr. eXtreme Terminal Performance (XTP®) Jacketed Hollow Point Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Underwood Ammo™ Supersonic Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger Copper, Lead ammo with Jacketed Hollow Point.

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9mm Luger +P 124gr. Jacketed Hollow Point Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Nosler® Supersonic Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P Copper, Lead ammo with Jacketed Hollow Point.

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[BLJ]

My thought is that if I’m in a scenario with a charging predator, I’ll have a very small moving target and a very limited amount of time to shoot.
Im thinking that I want to shoot and get back on target as fast as I can and as many times as needed until the threat is deterred or dead.

I’m thinking that I wouldn’t mind giving up some horsepower for multiple rounds connecting.

Would getting off 3-5 rounds of 115’s give a person a better chance than 2 with 147’s.

And these are all questions from me. No experience at all but very curious.

ETA. Considering the 147’s are a +p or +p+.

 

[Custureri]

My thought is that if I’m in a scenario with a charging predator, I’ll have a very small moving target and a very limited amount of time to shoot.
Im thinking that I want to shoot and get back on target as fast as I can and as many times as needed until the threat is deterred or dead.

I’m thinking that I wouldn’t mind giving up some horsepower for multiple rounds connecting.

Would getting off 3-5 rounds of 115’s give a person a better chance than 2 with 147’s.

And these are all questions from me. No experience at all but very curious.

That's going to solely come down to your abilities and training. The round makes no difference as a 9 mm is not a difficult gun by any stretch to shoot. Proper fundamentals under pressure is what you need to practice, or take a course on.

These are very good questions and common. It's where most people I shot within the military had the hardest time because they only trained in an indoor range doing 1 to 3 shots at a time and then checking the target. When you up that to five to seven shots, and use a shot timer, it shows deficiencies quickly.

 

[BLJ]

100% on the training and fundamentals.

My curiosity is more about the ammo itself.

Is the step up in recoil with the 147’s of a +p or +p+ variety and the greater penetration that should come with it worth it over possibly getting off one or two more shots with a lighter 115? In a charging predator situation.

Also wondering what the difference in penetration is between a 115 FMJ FP and say a 147 hard cast from 9mm?