9mm Buffalo Bore 147gr +p vs G9 124gr +p woodsmen for Predator defense?

Are any of yall using hard cast loads from blocks? Any feeding issues with the flat metplate stuff?

I've just been carrying my normal self defense ammo (124gr HST or Gold dot).
 
Choupique said:
Are any of yall using hard cast loads from blocks? Any feeding issues with the flat metplate stuff?

I've just been carrying my normal self defense ammo (124gr HST or Gold dot).
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Not sure what you're asking about. I buy Hard Cast at about 18brn, the last were acme (147gr. 9mm) , but the .45s were from Missouri. No feeding issues.
 
Gel tests are interesting for comparison purposes, but the performance in gel isn't what happens in flesh & bone.

Bullets good for massive trauma in humans don't do well against barriers. Barrier blind bullets penetrate better but do slightly less damage. The flat point hard cast penetrate deep, but the flat point causes enough cavitation to cause trauma. Not as much as expanding bullets.

My best friend got into a shooting incident that happened at a few feet, (state patrol) with a 9mm. Most of his bullets didn't make it into the vehicle. This was more than ten years ago now but it's real data. Ammo might be better now, but is it that much better? I believe his department was using 115gr Speer at the time. His OIS resulted in several policy changes state wide. I know he switched to a .40 the rest of his career.

Would modern 125s or 147s do better? Probably.

One key issue is a charging bear skull angle is pretty severe. That's a small moving target, and when/if you miss you do get a raking hit, straight penetration is best.
 
Buglebrush said:
A quick Google search shows that we're not the only ones to experience hollow point failures on skulls.
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We run all our own cows up in Northern Arizona and with that butcher all our own cows. We shoot 90% of them with a .22 HP and have never had an issue. Other 10% we usually use a 30-30 if that's what we have on hand. That's butchering 15-20 cows a year.
 
mrdeadheadr said:
Hey, going on my first solo archery Idaho Elk hunt in september and I currently have a P365x I'll be taking to carry with me. I wont be able to save up to afford to buy a 10MM so I'm asking is it better to get the 9mm Buffalo Bore 147gr +p.. or G9 124gr +p woodsmen for Bear/Cougar/Wolf defense?

Figured 9MM is better then not having a sidearm..

thanks!
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The correct answer to your question is which one feeds and fires 100% in your gun. Both will be sufficient as long as you do your part and place rounds in vitals fast enough.
 
I've shot A LOT of alligators at point blank range with a .22 and soft lead bullets, hollow points, etc and only had a few penetration problems over the years. Thats like shooting a Cinder block.

Far as I figure, if good 9mm ammo can penetrate an angled car windshield in a reasonably straight line, it should work fine on any mamal skull.
 
I've shot a lot of charging hogs with 158g hollow points from a .357- terrible stopping power. Hard cast ammo is a game changer.

I like to carry the small 9mms, but my Shield won't reliably shoot the BB Hardcast- too many hiccups. My G19 cycles them flawlessly.
If you want to stick with the 365 maybe try to find the Underwood penetrator ammo. They make it in 10mm, not sure if they make it in 9mm.

Dang, I wish more places would stock the 9mm Hardcast.....
 
Last fall I took my boys on their first western hunt bowhunting elk. Oldest carried his 9mm and the younger carried my 45ACP both with Lost River Ammo. I have a 10mm and a 454 but am re-thinking carrying those.
 
I was curious. HERE is Underwoods page on 9mm ammo choices for bear and there are many.
Sadly, I have never seen these in Sportsman's or the gun shops.

I have tested [hundreds of rounds] of their 200g Wide Meplat hard cast ammo in my G20 10mm and it functions perfect.

I couldn't find their cherry coated stuff or the penetrator ammo for my 9mm...but did try the Buffalo Bore hard cast and it doesn't feed reliably in my Shield. Either the wide me plat hangs up on the feed ramp [even after polishing] or the chamber is just a thousandth too tight. Sucks.

Edit; interesting note; Underwood doesn't recommend their Cherry coated HC ammo in aftermarket 365 barrels.

I know from my G20 10mm, the chambers in the different after market barrels can be a couple thousandths tighter than the stock Glock barrels which can be the difference between 100% reliable and FTF's. Mine is stock and I would never change barrels in a defensive Glock.

I like those little 365's. The Underwood stuff has that Cherry lube on there which just might be the difference. Their penetrator ammo was designed to feed in semi autos.....and it penetrates like crazy. I would elect for the 115g over the lighter stuff in the penetrator but would try the 147g cherry coated first.

The over penetration has proven out to be the difference maker for stopping these bear charges as it breaks bones and catches critical CNS that stops them in their tracks.
 
Beendare said:
I've shot a lot of charging hogs with 158g hollow points from a .357- terrible stopping power. Hard cast ammo is a game changer.

I like to carry the small 9mms, but my Shield won't reliably shoot the BB Hardcast- too many hiccups. My G19 cycles them flawlessly.
If you want to stick with the 365 maybe try to find the Underwood penetrator ammo. They make it in 10mm, not sure if they make it in 9mm.

Dang, I wish more places would stock the 9mm Hardcast.....
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Were you hitting them in the head? Or not sure?

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk
 
The only reliable way to neutralize any animal on the spot is CNS hits. That's it.....so pick something you can hit with on time every time.....and if you miss, you want as quick of shot recovery as possible.

Pick your shots where the path crosses the brain or spinal cord with the least interference.....orbits, nose, ears, neck.....etc whatever angle works.
 
Wrench said:
The only reliable way to neutralize any animal on the spot is CNS hits. That's it.....so pick something you can hit with on time every time.....and if you miss, you want as quick of shot recovery as possible.

Pick your shots where the path crosses the brain or spinal cord with the least interference.....orbits, nose, ears, neck.....etc whatever angle works.
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As the only WKR who has actually killed an attacking griz, would you feel comfortable with a 9mm?

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk
 
My bear was a big black.....but I carry a g43x or g23 if I am in griz country. I haven't carried my g20 or 329 much since I dissected the head shot bear.
 
grfox92 said:
Were you hitting them in the head? Or not sure?

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk
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I didn't do a scientific study or detailed analysis. I was doing depredation with dogs and we were killing 3 to 10 hogs per trip- both day and night. I did look over some of them, one in particular I distinctly remember I shot multiple times with my .44 revolver from my knees in a manzanita tunnel, 2 creasing its head without penetrating and in the shoulder. [I went to the .44 after many years and many disappointing results with the .357 and 158g hollow points.

A bunch of them I shot with the .357 at anywhere from 3 feet to 15 feet. Many misses of course but many shot right square in the head at those very short ranges and they were only about 50% effective stoppers. If I got it square between their shoulder blades straight down as they ran by it was 100%....had a few of those that were shot at a little further out and again as I zigged out of the way as they charged.

It could be hogs heads being so enlongated made them deflect bullets better. Admittedly, I think a lot of it was I had many misses. The long trigger pull of the revolver made for less accurate shooting. I do know that many of those hogs I shot charging were stunned when hit...but then they recovered fairly quickly.

As any dog guy will tell you, hog charges are very common when they get cornered by dogs and I saw a whole bunch of them in a decade of depredation. Many cuts and bruises from that and some dead dogs. One park ranger got a huge 4" gash in his calf....another guy with us got run over knocking him out and tore up his knee cartilage really bad- he never walked the same after multiple surgeries.

Generally Hogs don't want to maul you like a bear, they just run you over trying to get out of dodge.
 
My neighbor recently shot a mountain lion in self defense with Buffalo Bore Hardcast, he hit that lion 14 times before it was all over and the consensus was that hollow points would have been more effective in that scenario. The hardcast over penetrated and did little damage as it passed through. Just another anecdote for the conversation.
 
What ever you decide to shoot in self defense, make sure you shoot at least 50 rounds in the firearm you plan on using to save your life. Not all firearms like some of the hot loads and you don't have time to clear a jam. I have a 365, I would use 125 gr FMJ, they work in my Sig very well. I carry either my G40 or G20 10MM most of the time in the lower 48 and my 629 6.5" 44 mag in AK. Your mileage may vary! But there is no second place winner in a self defense fight with a bear.
 

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