6.5 Creedmoor Hornady 140 ELDM for Bull Elk

[packgoatguy]

Unfortunately, I think the "idea" that larger calibers can be used to offset bad shot placement is a pervasive one... and is easily bolstered by its own level of confirmation bias. How many "experienced" hunters will take a shot at a critter with a 338rum or something... and if it doesn't drop on the spot, they assume they missed. Maybe they don't even check for blood. Maybe they shoot a different elk in the herd thinking the first was a clean miss because of the perceived knock-down power of the magnum round they used... The story I got from a retired IDFG biologist is that the reason the law in Idaho was changed years ago to limit the size of rifle that can be legally used in idaho (now it is 16lbs max including all accessories, including tripod...) was that there was a group of "hunters" had 50BMG rifles mounted to their jeeps, and they would take cross canyon shots. If the elk or deer didn't drop on the spot, they wouldn't bother to cross the canyon to look for blood, they just moved on to the next target. In the end there were more than a few dead or wounded elk and deer left behind that were not tagged or even known to the "hunters". I've personally witnessed a cow elk take 3 shots to the midsection, just behind good vitals, with a 28 Nosler (bad wind call). If I hadn't witnessed it through the spotter, I would never have thought she had been hit. It was several minutes later after she had gone out of range that she finally went down. That was only 350 yards, so those bullets had plenty of juice. Same thing with a 300wm on a cow elk at 450 yards, perfect shot placement behind the front shoulder, but she stayed with the herd for several hundred yards before she showed signs of stopping. I've known plenty of folks who would have just assumed they had missed... and would have accidentally shot another elk from the herd... because of their confidence in the "raw stopping power" of the magnum calibers...

 

[Jesseb]

Unfortunately, I think the "idea" that larger calibers can be used to offset bad shot placement is a pervasive one... and is easily bolstered by its own level of confirmation bias. How many "experienced" hunters will take a shot at a critter with a 338rum or something... and if it doesn't drop on the spot, they assume they missed. Maybe they don't even check for blood. Maybe they shoot a different elk in the herd thinking the first was a clean miss because of the perceived knock-down power of the magnum round they used... The story I got from a retired IDFG biologist is that the reason the law in Idaho was changed years ago to limit the size of rifle that can be legally used in idaho (now it is 16lbs max including all accessories, including tripod...) was that there was a group of "hunters" had 50BMG rifles mounted to their jeeps, and they would take cross canyon shots. If the elk or deer didn't drop on the spot, they wouldn't bother to cross the canyon to look for blood, they just moved on to the next target. In the end there were more than a few dead or wounded elk and deer left behind that were not tagged or even known to the "hunters". I've personally witnessed a cow elk take 3 shots to the midsection, just behind good vitals, with a 28 Nosler (bad wind call). If I hadn't witnessed it through the spotter, I would never have thought she had been hit. It was several minutes later after she had gone out of range that she finally went down. That was only 350 yards, so those bullets had plenty of juice. Same thing with a 300wm on a cow elk at 450 yards, perfect shot placement behind the front shoulder, but she stayed with the herd for several hundred yards before she showed signs of stopping. I've known plenty of folks who would have just assumed they had missed... and would have accidentally shot another elk from the herd... because of their confidence in the "raw stopping power" of the magnum calibers...

Had they used a 26bmg or 26rum, they definitely woulda dropped on the spot! Bullets turn to laser beams at those speeds! Damn Swedes thought they were onto something 125 years ago and we Americans are just now arguing about it. Long live the 6.5mm!!!

 

[TNHighlands]

Only appropriate rifle for those tough-as-shit armored elk. Fuddlore abounds.

 

[Short Track]

Correct!
That's why I use a 6mm….

That's why I use a .243 on deer. They literally go nowhere. Just fall over.

oh, my buddy took a mature bull, 6.5 PRC at 1031 yards. Bull never got out of the bed.

 

[180ls1]

Unfortunately, I think the "idea" that larger calibers can be used to offset bad shot placement is a pervasive one... and is easily bolstered by its own level of confirmation bias. How many "experienced" hunters will take a shot at a critter with a 338rum or something... and if it doesn't drop on the spot, they assume they missed. Maybe they don't even check for blood. Maybe they shoot a different elk in the herd thinking the first was a clean miss because of the perceived knock-down power of the magnum round they used... The story I got from a retired IDFG biologist is that the reason the law in Idaho was changed years ago to limit the size of rifle that can be legally used in idaho (now it is 16lbs max including all accessories, including tripod...) was that there was a group of "hunters" had 50BMG rifles mounted to their jeeps, and they would take cross canyon shots. If the elk or deer didn't drop on the spot, they wouldn't bother to cross the canyon to look for blood, they just moved on to the next target. In the end there were more than a few dead or wounded elk and deer left behind that were not tagged or even known to the "hunters". I've personally witnessed a cow elk take 3 shots to the midsection, just behind good vitals, with a 28 Nosler (bad wind call). If I hadn't witnessed it through the spotter, I would never have thought she had been hit. It was several minutes later after she had gone out of range that she finally went down. That was only 350 yards, so those bullets had plenty of juice. Same thing with a 300wm on a cow elk at 450 yards, perfect shot placement behind the front shoulder, but she stayed with the herd for several hundred yards before she showed signs of stopping. I've known plenty of folks who would have just assumed they had missed... and would have accidentally shot another elk from the herd... because of their confidence in the "raw stopping power" of the magnum calibers...

Larger calibers can offset poor or less-than-ideal shot placement but only to a certain extent. The "hunters" you describe sound beyond help though. I do not mind an "excess of power" needed to kill because I have made poor shots in the field (for a variety of reasons) so the extra power seems ethical to me.

Similar to towing our trailer, a 1500 would have done the trick but the 2500 has its upsides.

 

[Maverick1]

My buddy has killed a pile of Bull Elk out to 500 with ELD-X (factory rounds).

How many is “a pile”? 2, 3…6?….

 

[Maverick1]

LMFAO That's right you have no idea who the man in the chair is...... Do some research on him and who he is and you will quickly stop running that Ignorant C#@K HOLSTER of yours. He has done more Autopsies and built more ammo and bullets as well as rifles while you still were daddy's little squirt... He is the Pioneer that helped 95% of the ammunition companies out there today about ballistics and energy etc... BUT I'm kicking a dead horse!

Please reference this thread: Calling People Names.

 

[swavescatter]

How many is “a pile”? 2, 3…6?….

3-4 bulls, 4 oryx, one buck, 6-7 audad. All beyond 400yds I believe. That’s just since switching to 6.5creed a few years ago. He was a longtime 300WM hunter with many other trophies.

 

[packgoatguy]

Larger calibers can offset poor or less-than-ideal shot placement but only to a certain extent. The "hunters" you describe sound beyond help though. I do not mind an "excess of power" needed to kill because I have made poor shots in the field (for a variety of reasons) so the extra power seems ethical to me.

Similar to towing our trailer, a 1500 would have done the trick but the 2500 has its upsides.

Agreed... to a certain extent...

The issue really is, whether the offset is enough to compensate for additional recoil. As I've gone through this evolution myself, I've had to swallow the tough pill that 'recoil is not my friend'.... even though I might be 'man enough' to suck up the recoil from my 300wm, it might still affect my shooting enough that I end up with more "less than ideal shot placement" situations than I would with a lesser caliber. Thus, on average I'm more likely to hit my target in an ideal spot with a lower recoiling rifle system than a heavier recoiling rifle system.

That said, I'd imagine there are more than a few proponents of using the big magnums who have really heavy setups, in which case the recoil energy is mitigated, perhaps even to a point that they aren't seeing a difference in shootability compared to lesser calibers... for example, a 16lb 300WINMAG will have the same recoil energy as a 6lb 6.5creedmoor... (says the recoil calculator I just googled)...

However, if we are talking about ultralight, lightweight, or even reasonably lightweight mountain rifle setups (say 10lbs or less including scope, suppressor, bipod, ammo sleeve, etc), then recoil can be a real issue.

Here is an example that I noticed in my own training recently:

I've got two identical ultralight kimber rifles, the only difference is their scopes. One is chambered in 308win, setup with a lightweight scope, and weighs in around 5.75lbs including my Ultra7 suppressor. The other is a 6.5creedmoor which has a heavier scope and the total package weighs in around 6.75lbs. Under ideal bench conditions, sandwiched between heavy sandbags, I can shoot the 308win into 1 inch groups with 5 shots and 1.5 inch groups for 10 shots. However, testing my abilities the other day, and ditching the sandbags for a lightweight tripod rest, it took me 10 shots to get 3 hits on my 10 inch gong at 400 yards. Now, bear in mind... the recoil from this little bugger is in no way painful, I can shoot it all day long with no ill effects or bruises to my shoulder... but the recoil is very noticeable. However, shooting from the same rest with the 6.5creedmoor version, I can get 3 hits inside of 4 inches on the same 10 inch gong at 400 yards.

Now, that said, with enough practice, and enough time in the field to build the right shooting position, I could get the little 308win to hit accurately at 400 yards... but the margin for error in my shooting technique is very tiny, whereas with the same rifle in 6.5creedmoor, I can make a lot more mistakes in my shooting technique and can use a greater variety of rests and shooting positions, and still get more hits on target than the little 308win.

The problem I sense might occur is that the average Joe hunter might take his 300wm off the wall twice a year... once to fire 3 shots from his "lead sled" mounted to the shooting bench in his backyard, just to fire 3 rounds to verify zero... and the second to take the rifle hunting... but because his only practice has been under controlled conditions, no adrenaline, likely using a recoil-mitigation setup, he has no real idea how the recoil might actually affect his shot on a deer or elk in the field... and this is why when I hunt public land where there are other hunters in the area, I inevitably will hear the typical "boom... boom.. boom...boom...boom..
boom...boom...boom" from said hunter who believes it is normal to need 8 shots to hit a deer at 300 yards with a 300wm...

 

[ElGuapo]

You guys are all my Brothers, love you all! Best of luck this coming season! For some reason the Creedmoore and Donald Trump seem to spark the most ridiculous, and spirited debates. I’m getting a CM to shoot coyotes with, I think it will knock em dead!!

I guess I should have clarified my initial response…. It had as much to do with small, match bullets as it did to the cartridge itself. Either way, whatever you choose, I hope you kill cleanly, with dignity to the animal. That’s all I actually care about.

 

[lak2004]

You guys are all my Brothers, love you all! Best of luck this coming season! For some reason the Creedmoore and Donald Trump seem to sparky the most ridiculous, and spirited debates. I’m getting a CM to shoot coyotes with, I think it will knock em dead!!

It'll bounce right off them, just ask the old gunsmith feller...but in all seriousness, why not a smaller bullet for predators? Smaller hole if you're keeping hides

 

[ElGuapo]

It'll bounce right off them, just ask the old gunsmith feller...but in all seriousness, why not a smaller bullet for predators? Smaller hole if you're keeping hides

I was kidding!! I respect coyotes way too much to shoot them with a Creed!!

 

[lak2004]

I was kidding!! I respect coyotes way too much to shoot them with a Creed!!

I'm gonna go shoot a mess of em with my cm now. If I shootem with the 300wsm, they skin themselves though

 

[bmart2622]

I was kidding!! I respect coyotes way too much to shoot them with a Creed!!

Serious question, have you shot any big game animal with a 6.5 bullet of any kind?

 

[BRTreedogs]

You guys are all my Brothers, love you all! Best of luck this coming season! For some reason the Creedmoore and Donald Trump seem to spark the most ridiculous, and spirited debates. I’m getting a CM to shoot coyotes with, I think it will knock em dead!!

I guess I should have clarified my initial response…. It had as much to do with small, match bullets as it did to the cartridge itself. Either way, whatever you choose, I hope you kill cleanly, with dignity to the animal. That’s all I actually care about.

How can you deny in good faith the gains threads with hundreds of testimonials and pictures.
The 6.5 thread and even the 223 thread?

You litterly have the info that if works superbly rite in front of you face and are denying it.

Use what you want, but you are simply spreading misinformation when you say it doesn't work.

What proof do you have that it doesn't?

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I run TA bullets. I am looking for a rifle. I was looking at 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC, 270 WIN, 270 WSM, 280 AI, 7 mm RM, 7 mm PRC. The 6.5 CM had the least desirable ballistics of the lot in drop and drift. Nothing against 6.5 CM but the ballistics with TA aren't impressive. In particular drift. 6.5 PRC does pretty well in both categories. I'm down to 3: 6.5 PRC, 270 WSM, 280 AI. 270 WSM and 6.5 PRC nearly identical drift but > 280 AI is the least of the 3.

 

[180ls1]

I run TA bullets. I am looking for a rifle. I was looking at 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC, 270 WIN, 270 WSM, 280 AI, 7 mm RM, 7 mm PRC. The 6.5 CM had the least desirable ballistics of the lot in drop and drift. Nothing against 6.5 CM but the ballistics with TA aren't impressive. In particular drift. 6.5 PRC does pretty well in both categories. I'm down to 3: 6.5 PRC, 270 WSM, 280 AI. 270 WSM and 6.5 PRC nearly identical drift but > 280 AI is the least of the 3.

6.5prc with 156 EOL is the easy button. Although, I'd do the 280 if you get into elk a lot.

 

[ElGuapo]

Serious question, have you shot any big game animal with a 6.5 bullet of any kind?

Yes, I shot a Pronghorn with my PRC, and I’ve been on a couple of Muleys with a 6.5 PRC. They worked fine.

 

[bmart2622]

Yes, I shot a Pronghorn with my PRC, and I’ve been on a couple of Muleys with a 6.5 PRC. They worked fine.

Never an elk?

 

[Mule3006Elk]

6.5prc with 156 EOL is the easy button. Although, I'd do the 280 if you get into elk a lot.

Thanks. Leaning 280 AI best drift profile and drift is the variable we have the least control over.
6.5 PRC for deer/pronghorn just looks sweet IMO. The 270 WSM is crazy flat but flat doesn't impress me as much as drift. Now the 270 WSM and 6.5 PRC have nearly identical drift but the 270 WSM is way flatter but more recoil. Decisions, decisions,....LOL