6.5 CM is better than .308...

[Hoosker Doo]

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This article popped up in my news feed about SOCOM acquiring more AR-10's for the military in 6.5 Creedmoor rather than 7.62x51, and I was surprised at this claim that is made:

"SOCOM found that when using rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, soldiers had twice the likelihood of hitting targets at 1,000 meters, or 1,093 yards"

Twice as likely is a pretty huge difference, and with no more specifics or data were given, it made me wonder why.

Better ballistics and easier wind adjustment, less recoil (shouldn't be much), placebo effect, or just that creedmoor voodoo magic?

I'm proud to have a 6.5 creedmoor as one of my 3 go to rifles, but I would have thought hit rates would be similar.

 

[bojangles808]

duh

 

[Fujicon]

Dontcha know? It's magic!
Just like anything that ends in PRC, Nosler, Backcountry, and Western, all be magic!
Least that's what gun writers keep implying...

 

[Koda_]

Better ballistics and easier wind adjustment, less recoil (shouldn't be much), placebo effect, or just that creedmoor voodoo magic?

My guess is better bullet selection of higher bc bullets, faster twist rates for more flight stability.

 

[Marbles]

In an 8 lbs rifle

6.5 Creedmoor has 13.8 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 143 ELDX, 43 gr charge, MV 2700 fps. G1 BC is 0.625

308 Winchester has 17.2 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 178 ELDX, 43 gr charges, MV 2600 fps. G1 BC is 0.552.

MV comes from Hornady's Precision Hunter listings.

So, 20% recoil reduction with 4% increase in MV and 13% increase in BC. At sea level the 308 is going transonic at 900 yards, the 6.5 doesn't hit transonic until 1020 yards.

It makes since to me that all those factors add up to a large difference in hits.

 

[Turkeytider]

Sandboxx News | Military News with Meaning—Where Expertise Meets the Front Lines.

Sandboxx News makes the complex approachable. Bridging the gap between academic expertise and practical boots-on-the-ground experience, we remove the mystery from conflict and highlight the importance of military service and deterrence-reinforcing technology.

www.sandboxx.us

This article popped up in my news feed about SOCOM acquiring more AR-10's for the military in 6.5 Creedmoor rather than 7.62x51, and I was surprised at this claim that is made:

"SOCOM found that when using rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, soldiers had twice the likelihood of hitting targets at 1,000 meters, or 1,093 yards"

Twice as likely is a pretty huge difference, and with no more specifics or data were given, it made me wonder why.

Better ballistics and easier wind adjustment, less recoil (shouldn't be much), placebo effect, or just that creedmoor voodoo magic?

I'm proud to have a 6.5 creedmoor as one of my 3 go to rifles, but I would have thought hit rates would be similar.

Yep, been in the works for a while now. The ballistic performance and general shoot ability of the round was just too impressive to ignore. Looks like the original bolt action sniper rifle configuration based off of the 700 and 70 are pretty much a thing of the past ( ?).
Edit: Looked it up concerning the more “ traditional “ bolt action sniper rifle configuration . Maybe not as outdated as I thought. Just evolved.

 

[Hoosker Doo]

In an 8 lbs rifle

6.5 Creedmoor has 13.8 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 143 ELDX, 43 gr charge, MV 2700 fps. G1 BC is 0.625

308 Winchester has 17.2 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 178 ELDX, 43 gr charges, MV 2600 fps. G1 BC is 0.552.

MV comes from Hornady's Precision Hunter listings.

So, 20% recoil reduction with 4% increase in MV and 13% increase in BC. At sea level the 308 is going transonic at 900 yards, the 6.5 doesn't hit transonic until 1020 yards.

It makes since to me that all those factors add up to a large difference in hits.

The recoil difference is a lot more than I expected. Thanks for doing the footwork for me.

 

[sierracharlie338]

The Fudd in me wants to scream but Ill try to keep it at bay lol. I have several opinions about the 6.5 and while most of those are based on personal experiences there is no denying it has some advantages.

I have to laugh at the way the article was written making it seem like the shooter will just magically shoot better when handed a 6.5. If the shooter can't shoot the 308 accurately then he won't be able to shoot the 6.5 magically better because he changed out the cartridge.

That said, the sniper variant listed in the article sho is purdy....

 

[omicron1792]

The Fudd in me wants to scream but Ill try to keep it at bay lol. I have several opinions about the 6.5 and while most of those are based on personal experiences there is no denying it has some advantages.

I have to laugh at the way the article was written making it seem like the shooter will just magically shoot better when handed a 6.5. If the shooter can't shoot the 308 accurately then he won't be able to shoot the 6.5 magically better because he changed out the cartridge.

That said, the sniper variant listed in the article sho is purdy....

See. I think that is exactly what the article is saying. A bad shooter will indeed shoot a 6.5 creed better than a .308.

 

[sierracharlie338]

See. I think that is exactly what the article is saying. A bad shooter will indeed shoot a 6.5 creed better than a .308.

I should have been more specific. Bad fundamentals are bad fundamentals no matter what cartridge is being fired. Is the 6.5 easier on the shooter? Sure the numbers don’t lie.

 

[nm.otter]

A bad shooter will indeed shoot a 6.5 creed better than a .308.

as will a good shooter -- especially at 1,000 yards (probably 600+ once you add wind).

 

[wind gypsy]

In an 8 lbs rifle

6.5 Creedmoor has 13.8 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 143 ELDX, 43 gr charge, MV 2700 fps. G1 BC is 0.625

308 Winchester has 17.2 ft.lbs recoil
Based on 178 ELDX, 43 gr charges, MV 2600 fps. G1 BC is 0.552.

MV comes from Hornady's Precision Hunter listings.

So, 20% recoil reduction with 4% increase in MV and 13% increase in BC. At sea level the 308 is going transonic at 900 yards, the 6.5 doesn't hit transonic until 1020 yards.

It makes since to me that all those factors add up to a large difference in hits.

Yes and standard issued 7.62 ammo typically utilizes 175 SMK which is going to perform worse than the #'s you crunched.

Velocity retention and wind deflection (due to BC), going transonic earlier, and recoil = handily outperformed at 1000 yds. Less so at shorter ranges.

Gamer 308s from F-TR or PRS Tac class pushing 176 ATips, Berger Jugs, 200.20x, etc with custom chambers at very high pressures are outclassed by the open class cartridges even though they offer significantly better performance than the 175 SMKs that are further handicapped by shorter barrels and gas guns.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

What is the difference on hit rates where 98% of game is shot at? Still twice as good at 0-400 or even 0-600? What’s barrel life difference? Global on shelf ammo difference. Resale ease? 6.5 twice as good?

Haha this should be good, nothing like splitting a few c-hairs to make for an entertaining thread. Flip a coin on priorities list, the 20th century 308 or the 21st century version 6.5cm while the 20th century option will still be a top contender neck and neck all the way into the 22nd century.

One of the biggest factors for me between them became that I’d have to own a 6.5 cm....and I just didn’t want to have that ick on my mind all the time and losing sleep over it.

 

[wind gypsy]

A grendel groupie that cant stomach being identified as a creedmoor owner? See something new every day.

 

[Marbles]

What is the difference on hit rates where 98% of game is shot at? Still twice as good at 0-400 or even 0-600? What’s barrel life difference? Global on shelf ammo difference. Resale ease? 6.5 twice as good?

Haha this should be good, nothing like splitting a few c-hairs to make for an entertaining thread. Flip a coin on priorities list, the 20th century 308 or the 21st century version 6.5cm while the 20th century option will still be a top contender neck and neck all the way into the 22nd century.

One of the biggest factors for me between them became that I’d have to own a 6.5 cm....and I just didn’t want to have that ick on my mind all the time and losing sleep over it.

Wise men shoot a 30-06 and leave the 308 in the halfway house where it belongs. But for fence sitters and girls who cannot make up their mind, I guess it works.

 

[NealS02]

We had four rifles (aside from duty carry M9 and M4) available to us in our battalion sniper section on deployment in Afghanistan in 2010-11. The M2010 (or XM2010) in suppressed 300 WM gave us the extra range we needed in open desert/mountainous terrain. The M110, a Knights Armament mag fed 7.62 that was IMO sort of disappointing as far as accuracy though great for increased rate of fire less than 600 yards. A Barrett’s M107 in .50 was 35 lbs, miserable for me and others to shoot, and worse to hump up a mountain with a fully loaded pack. We rarely used it. The M24 (basically an upgraded REM 700 in 7.62) was the workhorse and I simply love and will always have a fondness for that rifle even though there are better options.

I am just glad to see that the military, or at least SOCOM, has been more open minded and agile in terms of weapon evaluation and caliber selection recently than it has been historically. Ultimately, giving the best weapons and cartridges to those who rely on them to stay alive and protect us should be the overriding goal. The soldiers will not be shy about what they like and most importantly what works.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

A grendel groupie that cant stomach being identified as a creedmoor owner? See something new every day.

See? That’s how icky and manbunny the creedmoor is....it makes the Grendel even cooler than it already was, which is the OG 21st century 6.5!

It went through the wall in 2004 and got the bloody nose for the creedmoor and said to creedmoor in 2008 when it showed up, ‘here kid, things should go well for you now’. Big Daddy Grendel.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Wise men shoot a 30-06 and leave the 308 in the halfway house where it belongs. But for fence sitters and girls who cannot make up their mind, I guess it works.

It is shorter to spell compensate with 30-06, I’ll give you that.

 

[Marbles]

See? That’s how icky and manbunny the creedmoor is....it makes the Grendel even cooler than it already was, which is the OG 21st century 6.5!

It went through the wall in 2004 and got the bloody nose for the creedmoor and said to creedmoor in 2008 when it showed up, ‘here kid, things should go well for you now’. Big Daddy Grendel.

What if the creed had instead been named the 6.5 Beowulf?




Literature reference if anyone misses the joke.

 

[Fowl Play]

Interesting article. I do believe the 6.5 is at the top end of “comfortable felt recoil” for most shooters. Which likely accounts for the much higher hit percentages. When recoil becomes uncomfortable, your body naturally wants to flinch in expectation of that recoil. That’s something you have to train to avoid doing. Anything that requires more training to be proficient with — will have fewer hits on target at range when projected across hundreds or thousands of shooters.