6.5 C or 308?

[Mountainrancher]

This is not accurate. I dropped my bull right where he stood with one shot from a 300WSM and I did not hit the brain or spinal column. I understand your point though.

Yes you did. The temporary stretch cavity from a bullet traveling through an animal will often be large enough that it will flex or break the spine and cause the animal to drop instantly. The only way they drop like that is from a central nervous system shot.

 

[wind gypsy]

I've been there for a couple elk getting shot well with a 338 lapua and 300 grainers at about 100 yards and both made it about 50 yards. I should tell my buddy if he shot a 28 nosler instead they'd have died on the spot.

6.5 is very popular among the ladies.

As it should be, that's above the national average..

 

[Marshfly]

I've been there for a couple elk getting shot well with a 338 lapua and 300 grainers at about 100 yards and both made it about 50 yards. I should tell my buddy if he shot a 28 nosler instead they'd have died on the spot.


As it should be, that's above the national average..

It's true because it happened. 338 Lapua won't get it done on elk.

 

[Crete]

I'll bite.
Having shot both at 1000 I'd say 6.5 something, no less than 6.5x47.
My 308 shoot good, but it's struggle past 800.
I'm not a super duper shooter though

 

[BCD]

Yes you did. The temporary stretch cavity from a bullet traveling through an animal will often be large enough that it will flex or break the spine and cause the animal to drop instantly. The only way they drop like that is from a central nervous system shot.

No I didn’t. Slightly quartering away and lodged in the opposite shoulder.

 

[Marshfly]

No I didn’t. Slightly quartering away and lodged in the opposite shoulder.

The temporal cavity can be 5, 6, 7 inches in diameter or more depending on the bullet and impact situation. Add in a bullet or bone fragment tapping the spine and it's not hard to have a CNS hit from a bullet that didn't even come close.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

The temporal cavity can be 5, 6, 7 inches in diameter or more depending on the bullet and impact situation. Add in a bullet or bone fragment tapping the spine and it's not hard to have a CNS hit from a bullet that didn't even come close.

So you're saying the larger faster projectile caused a temporal cavity large enough to down the animal with a shot to the boiler room? Isn't that what his argument is to begin with, larger faster round is better?

 

[Marshfly]

So you're saying the larger faster projectile caused a temporal cavity large enough to down the animal with a shot to the boiler room? Isn't that what his argument is to begin with, larger faster round is better?

No. Nowhere in my post did I say larger faster. Bullet design does that. Not a bullet 0.04" larger.

A 6.5 ELDM will have a temporal cavity with a diameter 3-5x the size of a .308 TSX even at 60% the impact velocity.

 

[Ram94]

I will post the video if I can....One of the elk took two 6.5 right in the lungs and didn't seem t even know she was shot. She finally fell on the 4th shot .Again just my limited opinion, I wasn't impressed. I'm as guilty as anyone of shooting game with too small a round also. I'm not defending it, I'm sure I have lost an animal or two as well because of it. Shot Zebra with a 7mm-08 which was pretty dumb honestly, I paid the price a few times. All the elk were retrieved, 2 at a decent distance, just didn't seem to hammer them the way the 28 did. Like I said If I have the elk of a lifetime 15 min before dark I would want something bigger if I had the choice.

What bullet was used for the Zebra kill and what distance?

 

[Mountainrancher]

No I didn’t. Slightly quartering away and lodged in the opposite shoulder.

The only way an animal drops like a sack of bricks is if the central nervous system is disrupted. I’m not saying your bullet hit the spine I’m saying either the temporary stretch was large enough it bent or broke the spine or a fragment of some kind hit the spine. Unless you’re saying he stood there for a second or two after the shot then dropped.

 

[Marshfly]

People tend to forget that animals die in extremely predictable ways but millimeters can matter a huge amount. Bullets can be somewhat unpredictable once they enter the body and that's the cause of most variability when at first glance, the shots look virtually identical.

 

[Marbles]

I'm recently converted to the 223 camp, but I must point out that saying a bigger round makes no difference is not valid.

The key is don't throttle back the bigger round. Bullets matter more than caliber or head stamp. However caliber and head stamp are not inmaterial. If the bigger round is needed, then it needs the more destructive bullet or one is just wasting its potential. If a larger powder column is needed, it is for maintaining adequate velocity and minimizing wind effect at range (of course the larger caliber can also help with wind).

Most people don't need the bigger round, most people dial back the bullet and handicap the round. Or, so is my understanding.

I bolded key portions of the below quotes, I wanted to leave the quotes intact for context, but hit the post character limit and had to remove large portions of them. The point in all of them is most people would be better served by small caliber and powder column.

I use a 223 as the main deer rifle because it’s already causing more damage than I want inside of 400 yards. What would I gain by going to a bigger round? I have killed hundreds of big game animals with magnums. We all choose bullets that tone down those bigger rounds to an accrepable level. If you maximize 308 and bigger rounds for actual damage it’s quite frankly disgusting. Like throw out half the animal.

You want to see what a 30cal maximized does, ok-

In .308 diameter bullets between 308, 30/06, 300 WM, PRC, Weatherby, RUM, Lapua, RUM Imp, 30/378, Warbird, etc. I have killed and seen killed hundreds of deer. With 6.5’s in CM, x47, 260, 6.5-284, PRC, 264 WM, 26 Nos, 6.5-300 Wearherby, etc. it is less, but still well over a hundred deer. Given bullets that maximize tissue destruction, the big 30cals do create more tissue damage and hence faster incapacitation. However I would wager a healthy bet that NO ONE wants what those bullets do to normal sized deer.

On deer sized game (sub 300lbs) maximized tissue destruction is the 178gr ELD-M/Amax for readily available bullets in .308. With bigger 6.5’s max destruction is between the 140gr and 147gr ELD-M, and 130-140gr Berger VLD’s.
A 30cal normal magnum producing around 3,000fps MV or a bit more from the 178gr ELD-M will produce permanent wound channels of 8-9” above 2,400fps impact speed. They look like this-

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6.5’s look like this-

View attachment 248937

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I don’t know anyone that eats their game that is really happy with the tissue destruction that either one produces. If you buy a 30cal (or any caliber) and then choose a harder bullet to reduce tissue/meat damage, you’re literally ripping out spark plugs on your V8 to reduce its power...

As for distance traveled- the 178gr ELD-M from a 30cal magnum is about as close as you can get to a near guaranteed immediate drop from soft tissue only hits forward of the diaphragm of any commonly available projectile.

Given ideal projectiles for any cartridge within that realm, bigger is “more” but not generally more enough to mean anything*. That is- just because you shoot an animal in the lungs and it runs 50 yards does not mean that if you went bigger that it would have ran 25 yards instead. Barring a CNS hit, they have to run out of oxygen or blood, and given correct bullets and impact speed everything in the 223-308 realm is more alike than different.

*heavy frangible 6.5, 7mm and 308 bullets can cause significantly more tissue damage than say a .224 with like bullet, however those bullets way cross over the line that almost anyone would find acceptable for meat damage. With a 223 and the right bullet it’s already at too much tissue damage levels- why would I go bigger unless I wanted to cause even more meat loss? Because going bigger and then hamstringing the cartridge by putting a bullet in it that causes less damage is akin to buying a V8 and then yanking spark plugs because it’s too fast.

Yes. If utilizing projectiles that are optmized to destroy the maximum amount of tissue, a 30cal will have a larger wound channel than any smaller caliber. But very, very few people use or want bullets that are the most destructive because we eat the animal. Even with that, total tissue destruction isn’t the largest part of the equation. When talking normal hunting ranges say 600’ish yards and/or 2,000’ish FPS impact velocities- once sufficient wound channels are achieved, the increase in measurable and noticeable benefits from larger wounds drop significantly. There is no bullet from any common shoulder fired caliber/cartridge that can reliably and consistently turn a true gut shot into popping the diaphragm on an elk. Deer yes, not elk. You get incremental gains once you get past “sufficient”. And those incremental wound channel gains come with heavy shootability penalties that are not proportional- little gain in wound channel, big loss in hit rate. The shootability piece is actually measurable and has been researched and studied. The British with the adoption of the enfield, and the US with the 30-06 (12 and 14 ft-lbs of recoil respectively, IIRC). Anything more than around 12 ft-lbs of recoil has a dramatic effect of shooting ability. And no, body size does not have nearly the effect that most think when your talking adult males.

For the people who are going to say that these bullets destroy a lot of meat- yes. That’s the point. You can not have “quicker killing” and less tissue damage. Heavy for caliber, rapidly fragmenting projectiles have no problems penetrating through bone or muscle, and destroy a tremendous amount of tissue. That is why they kill so emphatically. With off places hits, they result in noticeably and measurably shorter recoveries.

If a 223 is already causing more damage than you want, then going to a larger caliber is going backwards. That’s the point of this whole thread- 22cals are already “more” than needed and way more than most people want if bullets are optimized. If you want less meat damage, shoot different bullets. Increasing caliber, weight, recoil, and cost; while decreasing shootability- just to yank spark plugs out to damage less meat doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Happy Antelope]

What bullet was used for the Zebra kill and what distance?

Probably 100% the wrong bullet, a Nosler BT. 100 yards or so usually. I know another guy who lost 3 zebras with a 6.5. Stupid hard animal to kill.

 

[p5200]

No one's ever even heard of a Tikka in my neck of the woods and I've never seen one for sale in any of the local shops.


Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk

Hardly anyone has heard of Tikka where I'm at. I once told a friend I think I'll get me another Tikka and he asked what kind of car that was LOL!

 

[Gorp2007]

Probably 100% the wrong bullet, a Nosler BT. 100 yards or so usually. I know another guy who lost 3 zebras with a 6.5. Stupid hard animal to kill.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the bullet weight was? Nosler lists 100, 120, and 140 as options in 6.5mm.

 

[Ram94]

Probably 100% the wrong bullet, a Nosler BT. 100 yards or so usually. I know another guy who lost 3 zebras with a 6.5. Stupid hard animal to kill.

I ask because it would be the same as shooting that zebra at 250 yards with your 28 Nosler. Bullets matter more than which cartridge they are fired from.

 

[fwafwow]

I'm recently converted to the 223 camp, but I must point out that saying a bigger round makes no difference is not valid.

The key is don't throttle back the bigger round. Bullets matter more than caliber or head stamp. However caliber and head stamp are not inmaterial. If the bigger round is needed, then it needs the more destructive bullet or one is just wasting its potential. If a larger powder column is needed, it is for maintaining adequate velocity and minimizing wind effect at range (of course the larger caliber can also help with wind).

Most people don't need the bigger round, most people dial back the bullet and handicap the round. Or, so is my understanding.

I bolded key portions of the below quotes, I wanted to leave the quotes intact for context, but hit the post character limit and had to remove large portions of them. The point in all of them is most people would be better served by small caliber and powder column.

Freakin' fanboy!

 

[Marbles]

Freakin' fanboy!

Yep. Just use the search function, user as above and the word spark (short for spark plug).

As my bone to pick was with the small caliber crowd, Form was the person to quote. I have no expectation that it will change any of the big caliber/powder column crowds minds.

 

[fwafwow]

Yep. Just use the search function, user as above and the word spark (short for spark plug).

As my bone to pick was with the small caliber crowd, Form was the person to quote. I have no expectation that it will change any of the big caliber/powder column crowds minds.

I know you know this, but for the rest, I'm on the same page as you.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

No. Nowhere in my post did I say larger faster. Bullet design does that. Not a bullet 0.04" larger.

A 6.5 ELDM will have a temporal cavity with a diameter 3-5x the size of a .308 TSX even at 60% the impact velocity.

Your post was explaining why the 28 knocked the animal down and the 6.5's didn't. I believe he even stated that the 6.5's were shooting ELD's but I don't remember what the 28 was if he stated. If you're going to state that the 28's temporal cavity caused the animal to drop then there's got to be a reason why that's the case.