.308 or 6.5 creedmoor

[mxgsfmdpx]

They are way closer in felt recoil than you are estimating.

308 Winchester, in the same weight gun, using the bullets I mentioned will have a very noticeable increase in felt recoil over the 6.5 CM

Add a can and it makes less of a perceptible difference in felt recoil.

Adding a can to both cartridges will benefit any shooter I agree.

That is all that matters, the recoil felt by the shooter. If you were ONLY measuring free recoil then it wouldn't matter that the weight of the rifle was 8 lbs. because free recoil is independent of that variable.

A 30-40% increase in free recoil energy will be “felt by the shooter” 100% of the time.

There is not much difference in case capacity between the two cartridges. Where would all that extra felt recoil be coming from? All things equal, the variable in these two cartridges factor into felt recoil is bullet weight and velocity. It certainly is not the powder capacity that differentiates the two cartridges.

See the formula I provided. You can calculate it yourself.

There is no need to compare a heavy .308 win to a heavy 6.5 CM.

I disagree. If I’m hunting with either gun I tend to lean towards the heavy for caliber high BC bullets to maximize my opportunities with the cartridge.

If the goal is to shoot heavy 180+ gr. bullets, the .30-06 would perform better.

Perform better how?

A 140-150 gr. in 6.5cm and a 150-165 gr. in .308 win cases will have not have more than 1-3 ft.lb difference in felt recoil. I don't know how you arrived at these numbers but it seems almost like you're comparing a .243 win and a .30-06 and misrepresenting both of the .308 win and 6.5 CM. Show your work, if you plugged it into shooter calculator then how did you arrive at the figure? I can't seem to reverse engineer your numbers with the guns and bullets that I shoot.

Use the formula.

If you're ONLY optimizing for BC just pick the 6.5 CM and shoot longer lighter bullets faster. If you want to go lighter and faster still, there are the .243 caliber brothers of both these cartridges.

Who said anything about ONLY optimizing for BC? I like to shoot bullets that kill big game animals well.

There is more often, than not, cheaper per round practice ammo for .308. It's a little easier on barrel life. It probably starts dropping off faster out past 400 yds.

Agree. .308 is a great cartridge as I mentioned in my first post and multiple follow up posts. .308s advantages are stated in my first post.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@AgentP you really can’t go wrong with either of these cartridges. If you have the funds setting up identical .223 and 6.5CM/243/308 is a great choice.

If you can only setup one gun I’d personally go for the state minimum requirement and shoot a 243 using 103 ELDXs. This is what myself and my wife shoot lately out of 3 different 8 twist .243 Tikkas. That bullet is very impressive down range and has killed several deer and elk.

 

[KurtR]

@AgentP you really can’t go wrong with either of these cartridges. If you have the funds setting up identical .223 and 6.5CM/243/308 is a great choice.

If you can only setup one gun I’d personally go for the state minimum requirement and shoot a 243 using 103 ELDXs. This is what myself and my wife shoot lately out of 3 different 8 twist .243 Tikkas. That bullet is very impressive down range and has killed several deer and elk.

Think a 9 twist would stableize that my kid has a few 95 sst left to shoot and was thinking of trying the 103. Its a a savage 110 .

 

[5811]

308 Winchester, in the same weight gun, using the bullets I mentioned will have a very noticeable increase in felt recoil over the 6.5 CM

A 30-40% increase in free recoil energy will be “felt by the shooter” 100% of the time.

See the formula I provided. You can calculate it yourself.

Use the formula.

I think people are looking for clarification on what you used for inputs to arrive at the values, i.e., mv and charge weight.

When I use the formula provided in a spreadsheet with your chosen projectiles and rifle weight, along with factory mvs (due to your factory load comment), both 2700, I need to use:

46.5 grains of powder for the 308 to hit 18 ft-lbs

32.5 grains of powder for the 6.5 cm to be at 12 ft-lbs.

Can you please list the inputs you used for your 12/18 comment?

 

[WV Mountaineer]

This is an excellent description of a trusty old .308.

For the guys saying they cannot tell the difference in .308 recoil versus 6.5CM they either don’t shoot often, have some slight amnesia, or are flat out lying to seem “tough” on the internet.

Let’s say you want to maximize the cartridges and shoot the heavy for caliber high BC bullets out of both.

An 8 lb bolt action hunting rifle in 308 shooting 168 ELDM with a factory level powder charge will be around 18ish ft lbs of free recoil energy.

An 8 lb bolt action hunting rifle in 6.5CM shooting 147 ELDM with a factory level powder charge will be around 12ish ft lbs of free recoil energy.


Anyone with a brain will 100% notice a 30-35% difference in felt recoil no matter their size or how “tough” the human may think they are.

Why would I lie? Or, want to be perceived as being a tough guy.


I Know I’m a bad ass mofo. It doesn’t take you confirming it.


I also know I can’t tell a difference in recoil. 148 grain bullet versus a 150 grain 308. Tell me you can and I’ll apply the “want to be an internet tough guy” stigma directly to you.

As this post expresses, there is little gained by arrogant, dumb posts. There’s no need to declare names if someone disagrees. But, like I said earlier, if you can tell the difference in recoil between bullets weighing 20 grains you are ‘da man. If you can tell the difference in 2 grains you are truly special.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I think people are looking for clarification on what you used for inputs to arrive at the values, i.e., mv and charge weight.

When I use the formula provided in a spreadsheet with your chosen projectiles and rifle weight, along with factory mvs (due to your factory load comment), both 2700, I need to use:

46.5 grains of powder for the 308 to hit 18 ft-lbs

32.5 grains of powder for the 6.5 cm to be at 12 ft-lbs.

Can you please list the inputs you used for your 12/18 comment?

I believe I used 45 and 32 and believe I used known velocities from my guns but that was on my PC and I’m on my phone out in the field now sorry.

 

[LongWayAround]

@WV Mountaineer

He didn't suggest that you lied.

He also didn't say anything about two grain bullet weight differences. What point are you trying to make with that?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Why would I lie? Or, want to be perceived as being a tough guy.


I Know I’m a bad ass mofo. It doesn’t take you confirming it.


I also know I can’t tell a difference in recoil. 148 grain bullet versus a 150 grain 308. Tell me you can and I’ll apply the “want to be an internet tough guy” stigma directly to you.

This wasn’t the comparison.

As this post expresses, there is little gained by arrogant, dumb posts. There’s no need to declare names if someone disagrees.

You just did declare a “name” directed at me above, my comment was across the board with nobody in particular being named. Sorry that struck your nerve so much. Mirrors are a great thing to look into every now and again. I need to do it more myself. My post wasn’t meant to be arrogant, just to state facts.

But, like I said earlier, if you can tell the difference in recoil between bullets weighing 20 grains you are ‘da man. If you can tell the difference in 2 grains you are truly special.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to convey here sorry.

 

[Nine Banger]

I don’t have one, but I would rather own a 6.5 PRC over a CM

The 6.5 PRC carries 14 more grains of powder than a 6.5 CM. It's a great way to send 147gr or 156gr bullets with authority but given the recoil trade off you're only getting returns from 600-850 yards over 6.5 CM.

OP should not consider PRC. This choice for this conversation would be the equivalent of considering the 308 versus 6.5 CM but going to the store and impulse buying a 300 win mag instead.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

@WV Mountaineer

He didn't suggest that you lied.

He also didn't say anything about two grain bullet weight differences. What point are you trying to make with that?

Maybe reading comprehension is short on some people’s list.

Go back and read. He I fact said anyone who didn’t agree with him was lying, being an internet tough guy, or simply didn’t shoot enough to know.

Not being a wise guy. Just pointing out FACT.

 

[LongWayAround]

Maybe reading comprehension is short on some people’s list.

Go back and read. He I fact said anyone who didn’t agree with him was lying, being an internet tough guy, or simply didn’t shoot enough to know.

Not being a wise guy. Just pointing out FACT.

My reading comprehension is fine. He made a generalized statement and you took it personally.

So what was your point something about two grains of weight difference?

 

[bergie]

I personally prefer the 143 ELDX over any of the 6.5 ELDMs. I also prefer the 129 SST over any of the ELDMs but that's because I "know" how that bullet behaves and where to place, having shot it and killed hundreds of big game animals with it since 2014 now.

I used the ELDm this year on two whitetail and a wolf, from 80, 300 and 550 yards. All three were a full pass through (I process all my own meat so I heavily shy away from the shoulder) with large internal damage. Unfortunately even though I poked where I wanted in the ribs, there was still more bloodshot than I typically like, most was superficial and easy to clean off but I still hate that shit on my table.

For pure meat hunts I much prefer a CX or hammer bullet but those ELDm just flat out hit exactly where I aim so its hard to go away from them.

I think I am pretty set in my ways with my PRC, but my daughter will be hunting in 2 years so I am looking into a 6.5 creedmoor for her, sell me on the 129 SST, over the 120 ELDm for that rifle.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Have both, also live in Co. both are a great choice with appropriate bullets and practice. Both are about as plentiful, easy to find and cheap when it comes to ammo. .308 had the edge with barrel life. 6.5 has the edge with ballistics & recoil. If you plan on not shooting past 4-500 yards then I would say either will serve you just fine. I will say I own 2- 6.5 cm and 2- .308 hunting rifles, last several years it’s been the 6.5cm’s that have gotten the nod. Only reason i would take a 6.5cm is if I take my 6cm once it’s assembled

 

[Hnthrdr]

Also I notice a lot of guys discussing max effective ranges that will give adequate disruption with the bullet, when we all know 99% of hunters, myself included should really never be taking 750 yard or 900 yard shots at game without significant and I mean significant training/practice. I know there are plenty of 1% shooters on this sight but most guys really should just practice stalking more haha

 

[WV Mountaineer]

My reading comprehension is fine. He made a generalized statement and you took it personally.

So what was your point something about two grains of weight difference?

My point is clear. You, him, me, or anyone else who own and shoot both a 6.5 and a 308 understood my meaning.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

As I stated previously, I love the 6.5CM and 7-08 as they're both right in the sweet spot of ballistics and recoil for the middle of the bell curve, regardless of sex. The vast majority of average hunters would be well served by either and the bullet selection for both cartridges for both factory and handloads is broad enough to cover any reasonable scenario. You can also find off the shelf rifles in both relatively easily, broadening the appeal.

That being said, if you like shooting high BC bullets fast to maximize trajectory in short barrels, that's where some magnums and wildcats fill the niche. A 6.5PRC will deliver 6.5CM trajectory in a shorter barrel. A 6.5 SAUM or 6.5x300WSM will provide 6.5PRC performance in a shorter barrel, etc... A guy sacrifices increased recoil in these efforts, and that is where suppressors level the playing field.

The load I have planned for my 6.5x300WSM should be around 21ft. lbs unsuppressed, and roughly 14-15ft. lbs with the can. IME experience this level of recoil is easy to manage and does not impact my desire to practice or accuracy.

This load should theoretically deliver 6.5PRC trajectory in a 20" instead of 24" barrel. Is it overkill? Absolutely, but I love these projects and the process of developing the rifle/load. Thank you Rokslide... LOL!

 

[StupidLightweight]

It's almost 2025, a point in time where everyone on this site should be as familiar with the adverse effects of recoil and low BC bullets as they are by the advantages of high BC projectiles at moderate velocity.

How anyone could argue in favor of a .308 baffles me. This ain't a theoretical debate about aliens, Bigfoot, who killed JFK, or who the real shadow president is. It's simple ballistics, and in every category that matters, the 6.5 CM > .308 Win. None of this makes the .308 a bad cartridge, but for 99% of hunting applications, the choice isn't close.

 

[ColeyG]

My 6.5 and .308 are both Kimber Mtn Ascents.

I can't say I notice much of a difference in recoil between the 2.

41 grains of H4350 pushes the 143 ELD-X at 2850 out of the 6.5.

44.5 grains of Varget pushes the 168gr TTSX at 2669 out of the .308.

Now I've never done the math to put actual numbers to recoil, but they feel darn near the same if not identical to me. I consider recoil to be a non-issue in each case.

 

[5811]

It's almost 2025, a point in time where everyone on this site should be as familiar with the adverse effects of recoil and low BC bullets as they are by the advantages of high BC projectiles at moderate velocity.

How anyone could argue in favor of a .308 baffles me. This ain't a theoretical debate about aliens, Bigfoot, who killed JFK, or who the real shadow president is. It's simple ballistics, and in every category that matters, the 6.5 CM > .308 Win. None of this makes the .308 a bad cartridge, but for 99% of hunting applications, the choice isn't close.

Uhhhh, aren't you leaving something out?

Just a little category called WHOLLUP. Ever heard of it? Maybe AUTHORITY?!?

 

[Fireflyfishing]

Both is the correct answer.