.308 or 6.5 creedmoor

[5811]

My 6.5 and .308 are both Kimber Mtn Ascents.

I can't say I notice much of a difference in recoil between the 2.

41 grains of H4350 pushes the 143 ELD-X at 2850 out of the 6.5.

44.5 grains of Varget pushes the 168gr TTSX at 2669 out of the .308.

Now I've never done the math to put actual numbers to recoil, but they feel darn near the same if not identical to me. I consider recoil to be a non-issue in each case.

Using the previously posted saami free recoil calculator, for an 8 pound rifle, you are at 14.85 and 17 for the 6.5 and 308, respectively

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

My 6.5 and .308 are both Kimber Mtn Ascents.

I can't say I notice much of a difference in recoil between the 2.

41 grains of H4350 pushes the 143 ELD-X at 2850 out of the 6.5.

44.5 grains of Varget pushes the 168gr TTSX at 2669 out of the .308.

Now I've never done the math to put actual numbers to recoil, but they feel darn near the same if not identical to me. I consider recoil to be a non-issue in each case.

Approximately 2 pounds of extra recoil on the .308 assuming everything else is equal. (Bison Firearms Recoil Calc.)

 

[WV Mountaineer]

This wasn’t the comparison.

You just did declare a “name” directed at me above, my comment was across the board with nobody in particular being named. Sorry that struck your nerve so much. Mirrors are a great thing to look into every now and again. I need to do it more myself. My post wasn’t meant to be arrogant, just to state facts.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to convey here sorry.

Why is it when people say things in opposition on the internet, it turns into a pissing match? The theme of the thread has morphed from what do you think, to this is what you should think. Because of the defensive nature of people.



The OP asked a question. Which do you prefer. He didn’t ask ballistics. He didn’t say what is the best for long range. He received a variety of responses. All of them were based on the notion and circumstances of the responder.



No one is arguing ballistics, which shoots farther, etc…. It was a simple question. My answer is based on owning both, shooting both, but preferring a 30 caliber option. Why, because there is little if any perceived recoil difference between the two calibers.

It isn’t confusing.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

My 6.5 and .308 are both Kimber Mtn Ascents.

I can't say I notice much of a difference in recoil between the 2.

41 grains of H4350 pushes the 143 ELD-X at 2850 out of the 6.5.

44.5 grains of Varget pushes the 168gr TTSX at 2669 out of the .308.

Now I've never done the math to put actual numbers to recoil, but they feel darn near the same if not identical to me. I consider recoil to be a non-issue in each case.

With these numbers you’re down to around a 15% increase in recoil moving to the .308.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Why is it when people say things in opposition on the internet, it turns into a pissing match? The theme of the thread has morphed from what do you think, to this is what you should think. Because of the defensive nature of people.



The OP asked a question. Which do you prefer. He didn’t ask ballistics. He didn’t say what is the best for long range. He received a variety of responses. All of them were based on the notion and circumstances of the responder.

You seem to be the only one taking general comments personally in this thread.

No one is arguing ballistics, which shoots farther, etc…. It was a simple question. My answer is based on owning both, shooting both, but preferring a 30 caliber option. Why, because there is little if any perceived recoil difference between the two calibers.

It isn’t confusing.

He asked to compare two popular chamberings for a hunting gun. Both are a great choice. There are a few important things to consider which I mentioned in my first post in the thread.

Where we disagree is that you believe there it “little if any perceived recoil between the two cartridges”. The math simply says you are incorrect. Shooters of all skill levels when shooting not from a bench with a perfect rest also say you are incorrect based on impact rates when tested.

It isn’t confusing.

 

[peterk123]

Both are spectacular choices. My wife shoots the cm, I shoot the 308. She went three for three this year on deer. One shot each. They dropped on the spot. I had the same results with the 308. I took an elk last year with my gun. Also one shot. Recoil in a 308 is really a non issue. Especially if you do what I did, put a limbsaver recoil pad on it.

I'm not into the long range game. If I can't get within 300 yards I'm not shooting. So I'm not too worried about things like BC and drop at 650 yards. If it's blowing like hell, then I need to get closer. I guess I'm just not a very good shot so going much beyond 300 is a no go for me. And I shoot every week.

30 caliber is the most popular for a reason though. It just gets the job done. Not even a debate. But like I said, for someone like my wife, who is smaller in stature, the CM gets the job done as well. And it is a very accurate round. She can hit a 10 inch gong at 600 yards with that thing. My 308, a tikka t3x, is also dead nuts accurate. It's a tough call determining which is better.

Try to get your hands on both and shoot them. The one you feel the most comfortable with and shoot most confidently is the one that is best for you.

 

[prm]

The barrel on the .308 T3X superlite is 2” shorter than the 6.5 CM. I’d prefer the shorter barrel for general purpose hunting. More noise to condider. (Edit: nevermind. The 6.5 comes with either 22.4 or 24.3 according to Tikka website)

 

[waldo9190]

Correct answer is to have both. Currently shooting 130 TMKs out of my 6.5 and 155 TMKs out of my 308. Shooting both side by side, the 308 does recoil more. Is it a debilitating increase in recoil? Absolutely not, but it is distinguishable.

Hoping this next year to actually shoot something with a 155 TMK to compare to the 130s.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

6.5 CM is an excellent elk cartridge. So is the .308.

.308 advantages
1. Barrel Life 5-10 times the life of 6.5 CM.
2. Very predictable in the wind with good bullets when practiced.
3. Good factory threaded short barrel options for suppressing.

6.5CM advantages
1. Better down range ballistics.
2. Less recoil affecting your accuracy.
3. Excellent heavy/high BC good killing bullet options for very long range when practiced.

Both are a good choice.

Great list.

Good factory ammo available for either.

308 can shoot heavier more smacky bullets and some guys like smacky factor lol.

Both can kill well to where 98% of guys are done killing so it’s just trades from there for most and lots don’t need a couple hundred extra yards of potential or bit less recoil and happy with unlimited barrel life and more smacky factor.

6.5 cm con is you should have a manbun and enjoy ridicule.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

It's almost 2025, a point in time where everyone on this site should be as familiar with the adverse effects of recoil and low BC bullets as they are by the advantages of high BC projectiles at moderate velocity.

How anyone could argue in favor of a .308 baffles me. This ain't a theoretical debate about aliens, Bigfoot, who killed JFK, or who the real shadow president is. It's simple ballistics, and in every category that matters, the 6.5 CM > .308 Win. None of this makes the .308 a bad cartridge, but for 99% of hunting applications, the choice isn't close.

What do you shoot and what do you hunt? And how far do you kill stuff?

 

[peaceful_ruler]

It’s less about “better” or “worse” and more about trade offs.

The .308 is going to shine in shorter barrel applications and closer shot applications; and the CM likes a longer barrel and starts pulling away from the .308 at distance. That frontal diameter is nice when you want to put something down quickly in the brush before it gets away and the 6.5 bullets have a significant advantage with wind drift at distance. Realistically, the .308 stomps the 6.5 inside of 300 yards with most loads. The .308 also shines with copper projectiles while the 6.5 shines with lead core bullets. Neither is better or worse but like any tool is better at certain tasks.

If I’m only killing deer or smaller I’ll lean on the 6.5 but if it’s big game country with the possibility of a grizzly in the mixing I’ll take the .308 with monos every day and twice on Sunday.

A 2X expanded .308 bullet has 36% more surface area than a 2X expanded .264 bullet. A 30 cal 130 TTSX impacting at 2200+FPS through the shoulders of whitetail deer results in high percentages of DRTs.

 

[Macchina]

Read through a bit of this.

The easy button is 6.5 Creed, BUT…

The 308 is the basis for many cartridges for a reason. It has many advantages that modern cartridges (6.5, PRCs, etc) do not. It is s a n underbore cartridge so it is very efficient. This means:

Much better barrel life. 3x-5x that of the 6.5.

Lower exit pressure, easier to suppress well than many big game cartridges.

Very efficient powder usage. Recoil is determined your ejecta mass/velocity so less powder per bullet weight means more of your recoil energy is contributing to bullet energy vs powder ejecta.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is not nearly as fast as new shooters think it is. I’m getting 2640 from a 24” barrel with 130’s. This is about the same as I can get with 165gr 308 bullets from an 18” barrel. 6.5’s don’t like short barrels nearly as much as a 6.5.

Bottom line: if you’re always going to suppress it, go 308. If you’re going to shoot a long barrel, no suppressor, go 6.5 Creed.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is not nearly as fast as new shooters think it is. I’m getting 2640 from a 24” barrel with 130’s. This is about the same as I can get with 165gr 308 bullets from an 18” barrel. 6.5’s don’t like short barrels nearly as much as a 6.5
.

Pick a better load.

 

[trailblazer75]

I’ve used the .260 rem for 6-7 years. Probably killed 20-25 deer with it. I’ve killed 8-10 with a 6.5 creed.

My rifle for work is a .308 AI.

Both are incredibly capable. I’ve never actually shot anything with the .308, but obviously lots and lots of folks have.

I recently made the leap and purchased a bergara b-14 hmr in .308 and am waiting on the barrel to re-barrel my rem 700 from .260 over to 6.5 creedmoor. Like it’s been said many times, both rounds are obviously capable but each has a certain limitation(s). I’m in the camp of owning both.

 

[nm.otter]

The 308 is the basis for many cartridges for a reason.
...
It is s an underbore cartridge so it is very efficient.

Or try a 7mm-08 which kind of splits the difference -- though 6.5 CM barrels last a fair while.

 

[Macchina]

Or try a 7mm-08 which kind of splits the difference -- though 6.5 CM barrels last a fair while.

I have a 7mm-08, it's my oldest hunting rifle. I love it, but it's basically a .308 lite to me.
140gr-150gr 7mm bullets tend to have a similar (or slightly less in some cases) G1 as 168gr 308 bullets. The .308 still tends to have more retained energy at all normal hunting distances.

The 308 is more under bore than the 7mm-08 and has a higher powder/velocity efficiency.

 

[Macchina]

As you move up and down the 308 based cartridges, you'll see that the 308 has the highest energy per grain of powder. I added 6.5 Creedmoor in there as well (almost a perfect tie with 7mm-08).

As an example, let's take VARGET for all 7 cartridges (it's the only powder that has data for all 7).
Max load of VARGET for each cartridge.
I tried to pick a common medium-heavy weight bullet for each cartridge.

243: 100gr bullet, 33.7gr Varget, 2838 FPS, 1788 Ft-Lbs: 53.1 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
6.5 Creedmoor: 140gr bullet, 35.8gr Varget, 2598 FPS, 2098 Ft-Lbs: 58.6 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
260 Remington: 140gr bullet, 36gr Varget, 2578 FPS, 2066 Ft-Lbs: 57.4 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
7mm-08: 140gr bullet, 42.2gr Varget, 2819 FPS, 2470 Ft-Lbs: 58.5 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
308: 168gr bullet, 45gr Varget, 2737 FPS, 2794 Ft-Lbs: 62.1 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
338 Federal: 200gr bullet, 47gr Varget, 2510 FPS, 2798 Ft-Lbs: 59.5 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain
358 Winchester: 220gr bullet, 50gr Varget, 2445 FPS, 2920 Ft-Lbs: 58.4 Ft-Lbs/Powder Grain


As you can see, 308 generates 17% more energy per powder used than the 243 and 6% more than the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 308 is an incredibly efficient round.

What surprised me was I assumed the data would show increasing efficiency as the bore diameter increased, but it doesn't. I first made this chart stopping at .308 as I forgot about the variants with larger bores. When I added the bottom 2 cartridges I was shocked to see them less efficient. Efficiency tops out at the 308 then goes back down!

 

[nm.otter]

Ratios of usable case capacity to bore area:

.243 Winchester = 4.10
6.5mm Creedmoor = 3.25
.260 Remington = 3.45
7mm-08 = 2.96
.308 Winchester = 2.49
.338 Federal = 2.04
.358 Winchester = 1.82 (estimated)

Cartridges with ratios in the range of 2.5 - 3.5 seem to deliver the best balance of performance, barrel life, and ease of loading.

Modern cartridge designs like the Creedmoor and ARC families accommodate longer projectiles, have tighter chamber specs, and exhibit less brass growth (thanks to their lower shoulder angles).