300 RUM vs 7MM Rem or 28 Nosler

[Ryan Avery]

Lol! See my edit about the 300 AAC.

Are we telling jokes now??

 

[Broz]

Oh! And a 300 AAC Blackout must be an elk slaying MoFo.

Well I do know of some people that are loading 215 gr bullets in their 308 win's. Slow, but does hammer elk. I think the 300 Blackout was designed as a joke. Kinda like a 338 Federal. They are oxymoron's , you know. Like "Jumbo Shrimp" "Pretty Ugly" "Unbiased Opinion" and "Ford Racing"

 

[Ironman]

I thought you boys were talking bullet size.

Speed kills.

 

[Broz]

Speed kills.

I like all the speed I can get in a rifle that will live for at least one season of long range practice and hunting. ( 28 Nosler would need a barrel a year in my world) Speed to me is far more important for its combined efforts with a high BC bullet aiding in less drift and drop. Mostly drift. I have learned this element of speed is far more important than what it offers for terminal performance. I believe when it comes to terminal performance many times lack of speed / (lower impact velocity) is actually better, (within reason of course) especially with cup core projectiles. I for these reasons feel speed is way over rated in the terminal performance area.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I thought you boys were talking bullet size.

Speed kills.

Oh, we are telling jokes!

I will promise you the 300 RUM chucking 230s at 3150 is no joke.

But there is nothing funny about walking up on a cow elk after you took out her lungs and shoot her in the head because the 28 with 195s didn't do enough damage.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ryan Avery]

How many elk have you shot at long range?
600 yards plus?

I only ask because this is the long range forum?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ironman]

I like all the speed I can get in a rifle that will live for at least one season of long range practice and hunting. ( 28 Nosler would need a barrel a year in my world) Speed to me is far more important for its combined efforts with a high BC bullet aiding in less drift and drop. Mostly drift. I have learned this element of speed is far more important than what it offers for terminal performance. I believe when it comes to terminal performance many times lack of speed / (lower impact velocity) is actually better, (within reason of course) especially with cup core projectiles. I for these reasons feel speed is way over rated in the terminal performance area.

I agree. That's why I'm confused. Heck, a 195 in 284 has almost as much BC as a 215 in a 30. Considering the better velocity of the 195 in a 28, the terminal velocity is there. As far as barrel burners, have you know a 28 to burn out? It's funny people say that, but no one seems to have documentation of how many rounds a 28 will take. Considering it uses less powder than a 7 RUM, barrel life would obviously be longer. Beings how the 300RUM and the 28 have the same parent case, it's obvious that the velocity is going to be there.

I don't know man. I guess I just wanted something that "outperforms" a boring, everyone has one, 300WM.

 

[Ironman]

Oh, we are telling jokes!

I will promise you the 300 RUM chucking 230s at 3150 is no joke.

But there is nothing funny about walking up on a cow elk after you took out her lungs and shoot her in the head because the 28 with 195s didn't do enough damage.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm a bow hunter. That lung comment is hard to swallow.

If it can't breath, it ain't gonna live.

 

[Broz]

Do you realize the short baring surface of a 30 cal 215 Berger allows it to have a MV of over 3K from a 300 win and with VV 570 3100 from the same rifle?

Yes double lunged elk will die, but that could be after they walk over the hill and into deep brush only to be found the next day from the birds in the cedars and juniper they literally crawled under and into. Down before they leave sight is a very valuable think in elk hunting.

Yes I know of 3 barrels in 28 Noslers gone in 600 or less. one in 400. There is a thread with more data on my website. By the way my 7 STW's were 800 or less. My 7 RUM was 5 to 600 and my 7 Lapua was going under 300. Want to hear about my 25-300 Weatherby at 4K fps. I have plenty of documentation on burnt barrels. How may barrels have you bought in your lifetime?

You know a 300 RUM ran like a 300 RUM should be is a 1000 round rifle tops for best accuracy. Most start to deteriorate at 800 or less. A friend just had one go to a 2 moa rifle in less than 500. So now you think squeezing the bore down to an even more overbore chambering is going to make the 28 Nosler magically last longer? There was a reason I spent endless hours and $$ with the 7-300 win mag's. They were living well over 1200 rounds if not over heated. I built them from 22" to 30" barrel lengths.

This last season I set the 300 win mags aside and built a 30 Nosler. 215 Bergers @ 3100 fps. Nice rifle with all the fun kid stuff in its name. But in all reality it performs like a 300 win mag with a shorter case, higher priced brass and burns more powder. But it's way cool. And hammered plenty of elk and a couple Mule deer over 170" this year. The 300 win will run 215's over 3K and go 2000 rounds plus. Will the 30 Nosler? Who cares it sounds cool. Will it stand the test of time? Great rifles do. Lets see where the 28's and 30 Noslers are in 10 years.

Thanks for the discussion.

Good hunting to you.

Jeff

 

[Ryan Avery]

I'm a bow hunter. That lung comment is hard to swallow.

If it can't breath, it ain't gonna live.

Didn't say she wasn't going to die. But IMO she lived way too long. There was a pinhole on one side of the lung and quarter size hole on the other side, the off side lung was jelly. She ran/trotted about 400 yards after the first shot. I was going to take pictures of the wound channel but had to call the fish & game on some knuckleheads chasing elk with a UTV and lost my focus I guess.

I saw the same kind of thing happen to my buddy with an old rocket steelhead(I think that's what it was called) out of a bow. But the elk went a lot father with holes in both lungs. The only reason we found that bull is because it coughed a few times while it was running.


In the end, I give two shits what you use... Just passing on my experiences. I have zero reasons to come on my forum and BS people.

 

[Ironman]

Lol! I guess that .30cal IS the magic elk round. 30-30's will be flying off the racks now. Hell, maybe 35 Rem will make a come back.

Fact is, if it would have been said that a 215gr. In .30 cal would do a better job than a 150gr. in .284, on marginal shots, I would have never commented on this thread. Point is, saying a 300wm will outperform a 28 is a blanket statement that doesn't hold water, especially when the numbers prove otherwise. It's been a fun conversation though. Thanks guys.

 

[ckleeves]

Broz, are you using 28” barrels to get a 300wm to run a 215 @ 3000 FPS? I have worked with a bunch of them and haven’t been able to get any that fast. Most top out at 2880-2900 but those have all been 26” tubes. 2 of them have been chambered with the RM reamer which I assume is the same reamer you are using.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Broz]

Lol! I guess that .30cal IS the magic elk round. 30-30's will be flying off the racks now. Hell, maybe 35 Rem will make a come back.

Fact is, if it would have been said that a 215gr. In .30 cal would do a better job than a 150gr. in .284, on marginal shots, I would have never commented on this thread. Point is, saying a 300wm will outperform a 28 is a blanket statement that doesn't hold water, especially when the numbers prove otherwise. It's been a fun conversation though. Thanks guys.

You brought external ballistics into the conversation. There are many out there that still hold on to old data. Like data before the 30 cal projectiles caught up in BC to a 7mm. Those days are gone, for now anyway. If you want to compare the very good external ballistics of a large case 7mm like the 28 Nosler with the heaviest High BC bullets offered, then do the same for the 30. Run the numbers on a 230 Berger from a RUM at over 3200. Or maybe use the 30-Lapua improved at 3350. I always compare with the best of both offerings. I can have any 7mm I want in a matter of days. I choose to shoot the 300 win with a 215 because of its superior terminal performance. Get this, my 300 win went 34 and 0 for one shot kills on big game before I sold it. Distances of 200 yards to 1300 and mostly elk. Shooters from 12 yrs old to 78. A track record that's pretty hard to best

I will refer back to my original point. The 30's will suck the life out of an elk much faster than the 7's. I have seen it over and over with similar shot placement. Keep in mind I field dress more than 1/2 of these, so I know what was done with the first shots. If the point of impact is a little off the mark, and the results are way more visible and if your using a 7 you better get another in it quick. The 300 will cover your Butt here better.

Don't be offended. That's not the intent. This is just how it is with killing elk and lots of them. If the future bullets change this I would revisit the big seven club. But I use what I do because it works best for me. Use what you want. If you kill enough elk with a rifle, you will see it to. Many have.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Broz, are you using 28” barrels to get a 300wm to run a 215 @ 3000 FPS? I have worked with a bunch of them and haven’t been able to get any that fast. Most top out at 2880-2900 but those have all been 26” tubes. 2 of them have been chambered with the RM reamer which I assume is the same reamer you are using.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes the 300 win of mine that was a solid 3035 fps / 215 for years was a 28". Brass went 15X firings and rifle still shot .2's and .3's after 1500 rounds.

I have seen a couple barrels go 3K and one 2980 from a 26". Those were with H-1000. I loaded up the 28" rifle and did a ladder test with VV N-570 and it maxed at 3100 with a 215. Node was wide and accuracy was great. That old rifle was chambered with a PTG Tactical Match reamer. However I feel this reamer we have offered to others on my site is superior. 300 Win Reamer for 215



Brass will play a large part too. We are testing the Peterson and also the ADG brass. My best velocities have always been with Lapua 300 win brass. Yes I have a stash, not for sale of course.

EDIT to add: most barrels on the 300 win mag will gain 22 to 25 fps per inch from 22" to 30". And as with all barrels some are faster than others. The Broughtons have shown good velocity for me so far. The Harts are a close second.

Thanks
Jeff

 

[maninthemaze]

Well I do know of some people that are loading 215 gr bullets in their 308 win's. Slow, but does hammer elk. I think the 300 Blackout was designed as a joke. Kinda like a 338 Federal. They are oxymoron's , you know. Like "Jumbo Shrimp" "Pretty Ugly" "Unbiased Opinion" and "Ford Racing"

Ford Racing.....that's the best example of an oxymoron I've ever heard, and the funniest.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[Ironman]

You brought external ballistics into the conversation. There are many out there that still hold on to old data. Like data before the 30 cal projectiles caught up in BC to a 7mm. Those days are gone, for now anyway. If you want to compare the very good external ballistics of a large case 7mm like the 28 Nosler with the heaviest High BC bullets offered, then do the same for the 30. Run the numbers on a 230 Berger from a RUM at over 3200. Or maybe use the 30-Lapua improved at 3350. I always compare with the best of both offerings. I can have any 7mm I want in a matter of days. I choose to shoot the 300 win with a 215 because of its superior terminal performance. Get this, my 300 win went 34 and 0 for one shot kills on big game before I sold it. Distances of 200 yards to 1300 and mostly elk. Shooters from 12 yrs old to 78. A track record that's pretty hard to best

I will refer back to my original point. The 30's will suck the life out of an elk much faster than the 7's. I have seen it over and over with similar shot placement. Keep in mind I field dress more than 1/2 of these, so I know what was done with the first shots. If the point of impact is a little off the mark, and the results are way more visible and if your using a 7 you better get another in it quick. The 300 will cover your Butt here better.

Don't be offended. That's not the intent. This is just how it is with killing elk and lots of them. If the future bullets change this I would revisit the big seven club. But I use what I do because it works best for me. Use what you want. If you kill enough elk with a rifle, you will see it to. Many have.

Jeff

Your first paragraph I totally agree with, however, the second paragraph is yet another blanket statement. Painting with a broad brush if you will. Like I stated before, energy is energy. The difference between.284 and .30 is negligible considering the same type of projectile, with the same expansion properties are used.

As far as being offended, I could'nt care less about the whole comparison, other than it being a pure blanket statement that defies numerical logic. Truth is, my next rifle will probably be a .204 Ruger.

 

[2five7]

Broz, curious if you used any other bullets in your 7mm testing? I've heard from a few guys they are getting better terminal performance out of the 180's, both Berger and Hornady versions. I've got an unfired 28 here, and wondering if I'm better off putting my development time into the smaller bullets.

 

[Broz]

Your first paragraph I totally agree with, however, the second paragraph is yet another blanket statement. Painting with a broad brush if you will. Like I stated before, energy is energy. The difference between.284 and .30 is negligible considering the same type of projectile, with the same expansion properties are used.

As far as being offended, I could'nt care less about the whole comparison, other than it being a pure blanket statement that defies numerical logic. Truth is, my next rifle will probably be a .204 Ruger.

If you want to call out what you perceive as a "Blanket statement" then you are going to have to stop using old data, tilting the playing field, and stop saying the 7 has superior external Ballistics. When you pump them both up to max, with today's available bullets, the big 30's win in all aspects especially when you go way out there and look at energy. Yes, this is the long range forum.

So just for you I will rephrase my statement adding one word.
" The BIG 30's will suck the life out of an elk much faster than the Big 7's. I have seen it over and over with similar shot placement. Keep in mind I field dress more than 1/2 of these, so I know what was done with the first shots. If the point of impact is a little off the mark, the results are way more visible and if your using a 7 you better get another in it quick. The Big 300 will cover your Butt here better."

EDIT to ADD: The longer bearing surface of the .284 / 195 compared to the .308 / 215 actually allows as fast or faster MV's from the 300 win case when both are built comparable same barrel length and with equal free bore. There's a comparison to think about. Now where is the external Ballistic advantage?

Some people are recoil sensitive, some are not. Many it is in their heads when comparing a well braked Big 7mm to a well braked Big 300. As for the 300 win with a 215 at 3K plus and a 7-300 win with a 195 at 2950 plus with the same brakes I use on both rifles. I would say very few if any would notice the difference with the same stocks and rifle weights. I can not and have 1000's of rounds through them both. How am I so sure? Many nights with these two rifles side by side waiting for elk to come into the hay fields. With shooters ranging from 12 yr old males and females to 76 yr old males and females. No one ever noticed the difference.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Broz, curious if you used any other bullets in your 7mm testing? I've heard from a few guys they are getting better terminal performance out of the 180's, both Berger and Hornady versions. I've got an unfired 28 here, and wondering if I'm better off putting my development time into the smaller bullets.

Yes, over the years many. The absolute worst was the Barnes 168 TSX from a 7 Rem Mag. The 168 Berger in a 7 Rem I am not a fan of either. Not for elk. To date, my favorite bullet for elk in a big 7 would be the Berger 180 Hunting VLD. The 180 Target VLD is second. The 180 Hybrids when ran with higher impact velocity expands a lot under 500 in a fast 7. The 195's act like the 180 hybrid and I see no gains under 500. However, these highly fragmenting hybrids may be the best with slowed impact velocities past 1000 yards. Problem is the vast majority of the shots are 800 <. And I will not shoot an elk with a 7 Past 1000 yards. Some will, but it is my choice to not go there.

Jeff

 

[Ryan Avery]

Jeff, I said big 300 from the start! We are arguing with someone that has never taken a long-range shot at an elk. So basically we arguing with ourselves. I am offended! Because this was a waste of time.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk