3 point muledeer genetics

[Jimss]

You are absolutely right....my concern..as well as most hunters that wait a lifetime for a tag is phenology! I know the potential for the unit because I know what is available in the surrounding units and that there are a very few whopper bucks.

You are right....talking about changing anything about does is mute! In the unit I've been discussing, 95% of the does are getting bred by mature 3x3 bucks. Of the 50 dominant bucks I saw this winter rutting after the season, 49 were 3x3's and only 1 4x4 in a lightly hunted unit. If you don't believe that is a problem than that's fine. It raises red flags to me. I really think that the buck end of the puzzle is evident and could be changed.

The big question is....is it possible to increase the number of 4x4's in a unit that currently is almost entirely mature 3x3's? If a whitetail ranch is inundated with mature 4x4 bucks and the ranch manager or outfitter wants to shift towards mature 5x5 or 6x6's..... is it possible?

 

[Chad E]

Does it really matter that hunters waiting a lifetime for a tag either eat tag soup or shoot a 3x?

No it doesn't really matter. Waiting a lifetime to draw a tag does not entitle you to a specific class of deer. The situation also seems easily remedied by doing some research and applying in a different unit. The notion of entitlement that comes from long waits or hard to draw tags often leads to disappointment and frustration. If you don't like the genetics in a paticular unit....try to draw a different one.

 

[Chad E]

The big question is....is it possible to increase the number of 4x4's in a unit that currently is almost entirely mature 3x3's? If a whitetail ranch is inundated with mature 4x4 bucks and the ranch manager or outfitter wants to shift towards mature 5x5 or 6x6's..... is it possible?

I would think on a unit wide level that would be pretty difficult when you look at all the variables involved but I am certainly no expert. Management strategies often take a long time to show results. Cutting harvest and allowing for bucks to survive longer often increases quality but doesn't necessarily get at your issue of bucks that will always only be 3x3s.
That being said they do it all the time in Texas. All you need is a high fence. Buy some giant buck semen and start A-Iing a bunch of good does. Then cull everything off the landscape.

 

[Jimss]

You are absolutely right about my choice of units. However, when I know their is superior quality potential for a unit and nothing is being done to improve things it's a concern! I know neighboring units I can draw in a heartbeat with the same number of pts. Should I blow it off and not care...heck no! There is a definite problem and all I'm asking with my post is if this trend can be changed? It may not change in my lifetime but I haven't given up hope!

 

[VenaticOppidan]

i thought that the idea that culling helped increase antler size in a herd was put to bed? at least in regards to whitetail? im not sure regarding mule deer, but the studies I read said there were noticeably good results with whitetail QDMA practices, not so much, if any, with culling. i apologize if off base.

 

[Macegl]

The big question is....is it possible to increase the number of 4x4's in a unit that currently is almost entirely mature 3x3's? If a whitetail ranch is inundated with mature 4x4 bucks and the ranch manager or outfitter wants to shift towards mature 5x5 or 6x6's..... is it possible?

In today's hunting society where score is everything, it is impossible.

 

[Macegl]

What I really want is a huge two point.

Big forkies are pretty sweet!

 

[Fatcamp]

Big forkies are pretty sweet!View attachment 148270

Beautiful buck!

 

[menhaden_man]

Sounds like we need a study

 

[wytx]

We are very similar to wytx on our family ranch in Utah (8,000 acres). We’ve been culling for years as well, but we’ve actually started to see a difference. Part of this process though is that we only shoot one “trophy” buck each year. Hopefully allowing the other trophy bucks to spread their genes. I would say this is a process that will take a substantial amount of time. With that being said, I don’t think we will ever eliminate 3 pointers from our gene pool. I don’t know if that is even physically possible with genetic mutation/changes. Our goal though is to minimize their impact on the herd.

We also only take 2 "trophy" deer hunters a year, the property is divided into 2 units about 2 miles apart.
We take lots of older mature 3 pts and some really nice 4x4's. We limit harvest to mature deer, 4 1/2 yrs and older.
Lots of great 3 pts that I enjoy taking that would be trophies to almost anyone.
Haven't seen any real changes in our deer herd, a few of those giant 2 pts around too but they are hard to catch up to in the season.

 

[Bookhead]

I dont think there is any way to kill out a gene legally

 

[wyo2track]

I'm aware that management buck harvest is fairly regular practice for culling poor quality whitetails but unfortunately very few Western states use such practice for managing quality muledeer. The WG&F started a 3 pt or better program in regions G and elsewhere in response to harsh winters and low deer. This was likely imposed to hopefully allow young bucks an additional year to survive and mature. I'm sure this places more pressure on older age class bucks...but that's an entirely different controvercial subject.

The 3 pt antler restriction was only going to be for 3 years (17-19) so this year I'm expecting it to not be in the regulations. It was implemented as a short term strategy only to help bolster younger bucks into the population as we lost 90% of the fawns in 16/17 and a low fawn crop was projected for 17. This regulation assumed most
1 1/2yr old buck would be 2 pts or less, but I'm sure there were some that had great genetics and were 2x3 or 3x3 their first year and got smoked, but overall it did look like it was able to help a little bit.

 

[Rangerpants]

In some ways, variations in units like a propensity to 3 point genetics in some areas are part of the allure of public land hunting to me. Figuring out the good spots that work for your hunting style and your values (meat/antlers/experience/etc.) and making the most of what you have available is all part of the game. I am perfectly happy with any buck I shoot, and especially so with a big one. If that "big one" only has 3 points on a side, I am no less happy and still eat well all year long.

That said, I understand your argument, but since hunters often prefer opportunity over average quality, I doubt F&G departments feel much pressure to put management strategies in place that may or may not make much of a difference in the population.

 

[gonhunting247]

We have a unit here in OR that was 4pt. or better for years. It ended up having a lot of big old 3pts. The antler restriction was removed quite a few years ago, but the effects can still be seen.
IMO it seems like if you put antler restrictions on mule deer for age class it should at least be 3pt. or better and if you have an elite unit that is managed for trophy class that takes a ton of points to draw, maybe it should have a management type tag also, with maximum point restrictions to address the trophy sized 2 and 3 points that get passed over on the other hunt. Somewhat like UT's Henrys.
I will be the guy putting in to help out with the management

 

[FLAK]

Aesthetics does not equal inferior genetics.

 

[wytx]

Ranch owners probably much better source of info than bios !

Not the owners just the wildlife managers and we work with and know the area biologist very well. Genetics play a role, big role and the doe contribute. Show me your 25 years of data.
Need a tissue menhaden?

 

[wytx]

You are absolutely right....my concern..as well as most hunters that wait a lifetime for a tag is phenology! I know the potential for the unit because I know what is available in the surrounding units and that there are a very few whopper bucks.

You are right....talking about changing anything about does is mute! In the unit I've been discussing, 95% of the does are getting bred by mature 3x3 bucks. Of the 50 dominant bucks I saw this winter rutting after the season, 49 were 3x3's and only 1 4x4 in a lightly hunted unit. If you don't believe that is a problem than that's fine. It raises red flags to me. I really think that the buck end of the puzzle is evident and could be changed.

The big question is....is it possible to increase the number of 4x4's in a unit that currently is almost entirely mature 3x3's? If a whitetail ranch is inundated with mature 4x4 bucks and the ranch manager or outfitter wants to shift towards mature 5x5 or 6x6's..... is it possible?

Pretty studies have been done in Texas on that issue and yes even spikes can become big 5x5's ,or 10 pointers as they are known in Texas. Seems to me forage , nutrition was the contributing factor.