280ai or 308win for both 600 yard deer and bear?

[tdot]

Hey Guys, first of all, thanks for all the great information on this forum, it is an excellent forum.

I've wrapped up my first season of hunting with my Sako A7 7mm-08, and now that I''ve learned a few things about where/ how I'll be hunting I've come to realize that I want a little more power. I'm somewhat recoil adverse as I have a plated collar bone in my right shoulder, so I have no desire to be shooting a magnum caliber until I'm much more dialed as a shooter.

It turns out I am way, way more into solo backpack hunts then I'd thought, so I'd like to drop some weight off the rifle. I also have really been enjoying shooting at longer ranges and at the shooting range. So far my longest shot was 300 yards on a black tail deer (one shot and down) and I had many more opportunities between 300-600 yards, but out of respect for the animals, I'm not confident in my abilities beyond 300 for now so didn't take the shot.

I have three hunts planned for this coming year, one is an Elk hunt, one a spring grizzly and one a bison. I wont be the shooter on the grizzly or bison, but dont want to be standing there with a pea shooter either.

So, this is where my question comes in. I'd like a gun (likely a Kimber Montana) that is light weight, sub 6lbs, not a recoiling monster, can shoot out to 600yards with enough retained energy to drop a Mule deer or Elk at those distances. It should also have enough power to drop a Grizzly within a couple hundred yards and I'd like to spend alot of time at the range with this gun, learning to shoot more effectively.

From all the research I'd done, it seemed like the 280ai was what I'm after, however, since the spring Grizzly hunt was planned, I have thought more about the 308.

I dont currently reload, though would like to get into it eventually, though that may be a year or two away.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[StrutNut]

Way under gunned for the Grizz. I would get a mag with a muzzle brake. That gives you the power you need for a Grizz or long shots on elk. I would have said 300 win mag until you said Grizz. Now I am thinking something much bigger. Maybe someone who has experience hunting Grizz can chime in but even without the Grizz option the 600 yard shot on elk would have made me opt for the 300 mag with a brake to help you with recoil.

 

[AXEL]

I have been involved with about a dozen Grizzly kills and would just caution, these animals seem to "drop" quickly and sometimes with small bores, BUT, they get up dammed near as fast and can hurt you badly even while close to death. A ,300Win. with premium 180-200 gr. bullets is an excellent choice, but, some folks find the kick a bit much.

I consider it unwise to shoot at a Grizzly who is over 150 Yds. away and would never do so, the chances of a screw up are just too likely. A careful stalk and "double lung" shot seems best to me as with Elk and other game.

I prefer and usually use a .338WM-225-250NP for almost all solo hunts, or, my drilling in 9.3x74R, 286 NPs or my 9.3x62 rifles with the same bullet. While, these are not "long range" choices, I am not into shots over 300 yds.

For, YOU, I would do as Luke Moffat here did and rebore/rebarrel a Kimber 84L .270 to .338-06, loading 210 NPs at some 2800+, this should give you what you need in a powerful, light rifle; I am seriously considering doing the same thing if I can find a used M ontana 84L at a price I can afford.

 

[tdot]

Sorry guys, just to confirm, I won't be the main hunter on the Grizzly hunt. I'll be there with two other experienced grizzly hunters who will be taking the shot and have considerably larger calibers. I'm simply there to watch/learn, but I'd just like something a little larger for protection.

 

[luke moffat]

Way under gunned for the Grizz. I would get a mag with a muzzle brake. That gives you the power you need for a Grizz or long shots on elk. I would have said 300 win mag until you said Grizz. Now I am thinking something much bigger. Maybe someone who has experience hunting Grizz can chime in but even without the Grizz option the 600 yard shot on elk would have made me opt for the 300 mag with a brake to help you with recoil.

I have to disagree here,

After seeing over 20 grizzlies and 20 mountain goats killed apiece I will say I strongly feel mountain goats are heartier critters and very few people would say a .308 or a 270 isn't enough gun. Seen everything used to kill both from 308, 270s up to 338WMs and 375s.

I have personally taken grizzlies with a 308 and witnessed more killed with a 308 win as well. No doubt a 280 AI will as well. But bear hunting for me is always a sub 200 yards affair. If you are wanting to shoot grizz long range then get a mag for sure.

But my 21" 338-06 with 210 sciroccos like Axel mentioned is what I will likely take on dedicated bear hunts. But for the summer rambles where grizz season is open my wife and I will our sub 5 pound .308 loaded with some 200 grainers at 2550 and take one if we can get in position.

That said if you already have a 7-08 a .308 isn't a big enough of a jump to warrant getting that. I would jump up to a 30-06 Montana if you like. Be aware that shooting 180 grainers at 2900 fps in a 6-6.5 all up rifle will recoil for certain unless you brake it. Can't have superlight and more power without getting more recoil as both reducing weight and burning more power and heavier bullets all equal more recoil.

That said the 250 Aframes are certainly managable at 2500+ fps, but make no mistake, its bringing the heat for sure on both ends


Here is my Kimber Montana 338-06 after some mods as a bare rifle:


Put a 17 oz scope on it and you end up here:


Here is that 6 pound scoped 338-06 next to the 5 pound 308 with peep on it.


Both are packing more then enough heat to take grizz in my experience.

 

[StrutNut]

Luke has a great point and is more experience. I just would not want to be under gunned when hunting a critter that can eat me

 

[Yellowknife]

From all the research I'd done, it seemed like the 280ai was what I'm after, however, since the spring Grizzly hunt was planned, I have thought more about the 308.

I don't currently reload, though would like to get into it eventually, though that may be a year or two away.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I seriously doubt that there is a spits worth of difference between the two on a grizzly. I certainly wouldn't consider the .308 to be any kind of significant upgrade in stopping power over the .280AI, particularly with factory ammo. Both are light-medium standard rounds with adequate penetration to get the job done at reasonable ranges. IMO, I wouldn't make the decision based on a single hunt as a non-shooter anyway.

That said, if you don't reload, there are far more ammunition options for the .308, and I would go that way just for that reason. Or split the difference and go with 30-06 if you really want to have something with a long history as an acceptable grizzly round. That has been my personal choice for quite a while now.

Yk

 

[MattB]

The difference between the 7mm-08, the .308, and even the 7MM-08 and .280AI is not that significant as to where it would cause me to make a change personally. Can you lighten the Sako to where it approaches your goal?

 

[Stid2677]

I have 2 Kimbers one is 280AI and the other is a plain ole 30-06, have killed game with both at ranges over 500 yards. For the hunting you describe the 30-06 would be the better choice, more ammo choices for this chambering than about any out there and ammo can be found any place that sells such.

I killed a Grizzly with mine using 180 Accubonds and the damage was substantial, as other's have mentioned bear hunting IMHO should be an up close affair.

 

[larryschwartz]

And now for something totally different...if you are OK with thinking outside the box a bit you can get an AR in .308 from Bushmaster or Smith & Wesson that comes in at around 8 pounds without a scope on it. I'm not suggesting it because you want to carry 10-20 rounds with you in the field, but because the buffer spring in the stock will significantly reduce the recoil which might be good for your shoulder. They are easy to maneuver in the brush or while climbing due to the adjustable stock and shorter barrel. They are also accurate out to the ranges you are talking about.

 

[tdot]

The difference between the 7mm-08, the .308, and even the 7MM-08 and .280AI is not that significant as to where it would cause me to make a change personally. Can you lighten the Sako to where it approaches your goal?

My plan is to sell the Sako as is. By the time I put a stock, rebarrel and smith work to lighten it, it'll be more expensive then a Montana, and I haven't been able to find much info on A7 mods, so weight savings are a huge unknown. I'm sure the argument could be made that it may be a better rifle. But what it'll allow me to do is buy a .260 or 6.5x55, which is what I originally wanted for my smaller caliber, I just wasn't able to find one in time for last hunting season.

 

[tdot]

I have to disagree here,

After seeing over 20 grizzlies and 20 mountain goats killed apiece I will say I strongly feel mountain goats are heartier critters and very few people would say a .308 or a 270 isn't enough gun. Seen everything used to kill both from 308, 270s up to 338WMs and 375s.

I have personally taken grizzlies with a 308 and witnessed more killed with a 308 win as well. No doubt a 280 AI will as well. But bear hunting for me is always a sub 200 yards affair. If you are wanting to shoot grizz long range then get a mag for sure.

But my 21" 338-06 with 210 sciroccos like Axel mentioned is what I will likely take on dedicated bear hunts. But for the summer rambles where grizz season is open my wife and I will our sub 5 pound .308 loaded with some 200 grainers at 2550 and take one if we can get in position.

That said if you already have a 7-08 a .308 isn't a big enough of a jump to warrant getting that. I would jump up to a 30-06 Montana if you like. Be aware that shooting 180 grainers at 2900 fps in a 6-6.5 all up rifle will recoil for certain unless you brake it. Can't have superlight and more power without getting more recoil as both reducing weight and burning more power and heavier bullets all equal more recoil.

That said the 250 Aframes are certainly managable at 2500+ fps, but make no mistake, its bringing the heat for sure on both ends


Here is my Kimber Montana 338-06 after some mods as a bare rifle:


Put a 17 oz scope on it and you end up here:


Here is that 6 pound scoped 338-06 next to the 5 pound 308 with peep on it.


Both are packing more then enough heat to take grizz in my experience.

This course of action would of course add two guns to the closet, which I certainly don't mind and seems like it might be a smarter course of action, in the long run. I had originally thought about adding something along the lines of an 8x57 or 338 A square as a larger gun, but I'd never dreamed of putting them into light weight rifles.

Would these be appropriate rounds for sub 200yard shots on moose and bison?

What are your thoughts on using the Kimber regularly at the range? I'd probably put a few hundred rounds thru it in a year.

 

[tdot]

I have 2 Kimbers one is 280AI and the other is a plain ole 30-06, have killed game with both at ranges over 500 yards. For the hunting you describe the 30-06 would be the better choice, more ammo choices for this chambering than about any out there and ammo can be found any place that sells such.

I killed a Grizzly with mine using 180 Accubonds and the damage was substantial, as other's have mentioned bear hunting IMHO should be an up close affair.

Thoughts on the recoil difference between these two rounds in the same gun?

Nice Grizzly, was that it's offside shoulder that was so badly damaged?

 

[tdot]

And now for something totally different...if you are OK with thinking outside the box a bit you can get an AR in .308 from Bushmaster or Smith & Wesson that comes in at around 8 pounds without a scope on it. I'm not suggesting it because you want to carry 10-20 rounds with you in the field, but because the buffer spring in the stock will significantly reduce the recoil which might be good for your shoulder. They are easy to maneuver in the brush or while climbing due to the adjustable stock and shorter barrel. They are also accurate out to the ranges you are talking about.

One of my hunting partners is my girlfriends dad. He has a very classic taste in guns, limiting himself in large part to the classic European metric rounds, with blued barrels and gorgeous walnut stocks. Even here in the rainforests of BC. I probably wouldn't be allowed into the house if I showed up with anything in an AR platform.

 

[Stid2677]

Thoughts on the recoil difference between these two rounds in the same gun?

Nice Grizzly, was that it's offside shoulder that was so badly damaged?

The shot was quartering away through the boiler into the off shoulder, shattered the the shoulder bones.

My load of Reloader 17 is within .5 a grain for both loads with the 06 shooting a 180 grain Accubond and the 280AI firing a 140 grainer. No noticeable difference in the recoil that I can tell.

 

[Mike7]

Luke and Stid,

I really appreciate the real world experience you guys bring to the conversation, which seems to fit well with what I have read about the terminal ballistics of some of the smaller non-magnum rounds at less than < 150 -200 yds distance.

Those are nice rifles Luke, but I imagine that that 338-06 in a 6 lb rifle recoils pretty significantly? That would probably be something I would be more comfortable with in a 7.5 lb + rifle I'm guessing?

I wonder if the original poster for this one trip, would be better off just bringing a short barreled shotgun with bonded sabot slugs for bear protection carried in a gun bearer or other quick draw scabbard...assuming he already owns a shotgun. Have any of you seen the bonded shotgun slugs in action on animals...I wonder how well they really work for close up encounters?

Mike

 

[luke moffat]

tdot,

Being as I grew shooting moose and still do and watch people shoot moose with a .308 a 338-06 or the ilk would certainly do the job just as well if not better.

After seeing more than a few dozen moose killed I have grown to feel they are NOT terribly tough to kill IME. A buddy I grew up with used a 243 for all his moose hunting and did just fine.

Mike7,
As far as recoil goes, yeah a 6 pound even 338-06 and wouldn't be my first choice for plinking by anymeans. Its a backpack hunting gun meant to be carried much more than shot. That said I did run 50 rounds down the pipe first time at the range sighting it in and doing load work ups. 5 days later took it to the range again for another 30. Yeah my shoulder felt sore after shooting each time but it wasn't horrible IMO. But everyone reacts and observes recoil differently.

I imagine the little 308 win with 200 grainers at 5 pounds ready to hunt will have similar recoil.

I don't shoot long range and try to keep my shots inside 300-400 yards as if its beyond that I'll either wait until I get closer or let the animal go.

If recoil is an issue in a lightweight rifle for you can either sell it or brake it. I don't feel the need to sell or brake either of these rifles as its seriously managable for me. But someone used to shooting a 8 pound all up 243 or even 30-06 might feel differently. Nothing wrong with that, rifles are simply tools and people prefer different style tools for different uses.

Hope that helps.

 

[tdot]

Thanks for all the info, I've got a Montana Kimber .308 ordered. I'm super excited. My plan is to find a couple different loads, one with a 180 grain for Bear protection and the something with either 150 or 165 grain for deer and elk.

Any specific factory loads that you guys would suggest? Any tips on zeroing in a scope for two different loads? Is it possible to zero for one load and still use the other load or would I have to zero for each load?

 

[Daniel_M]

Thanks for all the info, I've got a Montana Kimber .308 ordered. I'm super excited. My plan is to find a couple different loads, one with a 180 grain for Bear protection and the something with either 150 or 165 grain for deer and elk.

Any specific factory loads that you guys would suggest? Any tips on zeroing in a scope for two different loads? Is it possible to zero for one load and still use the other load or would I have to zero for each load?

Both loads will target differently. Your best bet is to run a Leupold CDS which will allow you to swap dials.

 

[luke moffat]

Thanks for all the info, I've got a Montana Kimber .308 ordered. I'm super excited. My plan is to find a couple different loads, one with a 180 grain for Bear protection and the something with either 150 or 165 grain for deer and elk.

Any specific factory loads that you guys would suggest? Any tips on zeroing in a scope for two different loads? Is it possible to zero for one load and still use the other load or would I have to zero for each load?

Congrats on the rifle!!

Any reason not to run 180 accubonds or Sciroccos for everything?