.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[KHntr]

I switched up components recently that should handle the pressure better, ie Starline 5.56, CCI 450’s and Lever (25.5). Loaded at 2.52” OAL. 2713 avg.

No pressure signs except the slight cratering of the primers that I almost always get, probably because of the firing pin to firing pin hole diameter in the bolt body. Second firing is fine so far. Primers are nice and tight.

Pretty much the same exactly load I use for ELD m and TMK’s, except mine are only 2.431” and I get 2740-2750fps in my AI.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Well hell, all we need to know is S.D. to know a bullet's terminal performance? So all this time, 88 ELD-M, Sierra 90 MK, Berger 90 VLD and now the 88 TMK are interchangeable with respect to terminal performance? Why didn't you tell us sooner?

Come on @Stinky Coyote, try not to be a buffoon...try hard.

I said ‘tipped match’ a couple times if you were speed reading maybe you missed it. I’m like many here and all discussion revolves around those, eldm or tmk, tomato tomahto.

What’s the common theme here on the 77 vs 73? Similar except the 77 goes a bit deeper. Percent that difference however you like, by weight difference or by sd difference, that’s how much more better the heavier one is. Even if consensus is couple inches (14” vs 16” or whatever) deeper then see what percentage that is and which it’s closer to...weight or sd difference and you might really be cookin with gas to project what the 88 will do over the 77. Buy, shoot and carry on. Otherwise it’s all just entertainment for enjoyment looking over the result of work pics. Which I like very much too. See it however you like, boil down the recipe however you like, make it easy or make it hard.

Or even better see what the sd of the 88 is and if anything else known around here ‘tipped match’ regardless of caliber is close to that and if it’s a proven formula? The pattern/formula reveals itself.

Oh, and you’re welcome.

 

[RockAndSage]

The data presented here would be my only reason for trying the 77 gr TMK again.

Basically if a bunch of guys on the internet weren't saying it was awesome and posting pictures I'd see no logical reason to keep experimenting after a 223 TMK made an unimpressive hole.

Maybe i got the one weird reasult. But I just helped a guy with another grizzly he shot with a 308 and a 178 gr ELDX. The wound channel was 19 inches then it exited. The wound was wider all the way through. That's typical for 308 and similar sized cartridges in my experience. Never had a 30 cal make a hole as small as the 77 TMK out of the 223 AR.

Now those 88 Gr TMK pics look promising. That black bear isn't hugely smaller than the grizzly my buddy got with the 223 but the damage looks more impressive.

I've gotten the impression that bears are built a bit differently from things like elk and moose, in terms of how their hides do things like minimize blood loss, maybe that their bodies are a bit more flexible than cervids, etc. And the evidence I've seen from 7mm and 30cal tipped match bullets is that they're absolutely overkill on elk, deer, etc - yet it seems you're saying in bear they're more or less sufficient. Is there any possibility here that bear bodies just behave a little differently in getting shot? Complete conjecture, but the thought does make me wonder. Any of you guys with extensive bear killing experience have any thoughts if there are any differences, even slight ones?

 

[RockAndSage]

I have a 20" Howa Mini Action that shoots Black Hills 5.56 77tmk at 2759 fps and the AAC 77tmk @ 2689 fps. These are all factory loaded AR length rounds. I would say you should see something between 2650 and 2800 fps from a 20" barrel which will give you a maximum terminal range from 425 yards to 575 yards depending upon your velocity and atmosphere.

Jay

Is this with an 1800fps minimum velocity?

 

[The Guide]

Is this with an 1800fps minimum velocity?

Yes, 425 yards @ 250' DA @ 40⁰ @ 2650 fps and then 575 yards @ 5,250' DA @ 40⁰ @ 2800 fps.

Jay

 

[Moose83]

I've gotten the impression that bears are built a bit differently from things like elk and moose, in terms of how their hides do things like minimize blood loss, maybe that their bodies are a bit more flexible than cervids, etc. And the evidence I've seen from 7mm and 30cal tipped match bullets is that they're absolutely overkill on elk, deer, etc - yet it seems you're saying in bear they're more or less sufficient. Is there any possibility here that bear bodies just behave a little differently in getting shot? Complete conjecture, but the thought does make me wonder. Any of you guys with extensive bear killing experience have any thoughts if there are any differences, even slight ones?

I wouldn't say I have extensive experience, but from what I've seen a bears under fur does a very good job of soaking up whatever blood they do leak. Also depending on when you shoot them they can have a lot of subcutaneous fat which can also plug off bullets holes causing poor blood trails. Other than that I wouldn't say they are built any tougher than an ungulate... if anything they are lighter boned. Also, like anything else, bears can have different body composition, ie, some are long and lanky, while others are built like a body builder.

 

[Luke S]

I shot all my whitetail deer long ago. Mostly with 30 caliber CoreLocks. So not sure how to compare to bears with a different bullet.

A proper hit on a broadside bear will be farther back than on a broadside deer. That seems to help with bloodshot meat. The last bear with a 308 was hit a bit farther forward and the top of that quarter was super blood shot. If i was shooting little deer I'd use a smaller caliber or a less "explosive " bullet if I had a 308.

I'm not saying my experience with the 223 was bad, just a notable step down in tissue damage from a 30 caliber with ELDMs or ELDXs as well as bigger bores with premium bullets. For deer the 223 might be "just right" because you want something left to eat. I like a bit more tissue damage for bears.

 

[mwoolsey5]

Just for fun, I had ChatGPT speculate on how the 223 would perform if it got the +Peak treatment compared to a 22 CM.

77 TMK Velocity Estimates (Midpoints)

Barrel Length .223 +Peak .22 Creedmoor
------------------------------------------------
16" 2,900 fps 3,100 fps
18" 3,000 fps 3,213 fps
20" 3,075 fps 3,313 fps

Estimated Free Recoil:
Cartridge Recoil Energy
------------------------------------------------
Standard .223 Rem ~4 ft-lb
Hypothetical .223 +Peak ~5–6 ft-lb
.22 Creedmoor ~8–10 ft-lb

Again, this is all speculative on a product that may never appear, and would have trade offs in some additional recoil and cost, but would let you gain back some velocity while using a shorter barrel. I have no idea what the new +Peak cases would mean for barrel life.

Is a 223 +Peak something you guys would want to see happen or are the trade-offs just not worth it?

 

[Gstew1930]

I switched up components recently that should handle the pressure better, ie Starline 5.56, CCI 450’s and Lever (25.5). Loaded at 2.52” OAL. 2713 avg.

No pressure signs except the slight cratering of the primers that I almost always get, probably because of the firing pin to firing pin hole diameter in the bolt body. Second firing is fine so far. Primers are nice and tight.

Are you taking this for sheep this yeah?

 

[Plague]

Just for fun, I had ChatGPT speculate on how the 223 would perform if it got the +Peak treatment compared to a 22 CM.

77 TMK Velocity Estimates (Midpoints)

Barrel Length .223 +Peak .22 Creedmoor
------------------------------------------------
16" 2,900 fps 3,100 fps
18" 3,000 fps 3,213 fps
20" 3,075 fps 3,313 fps

Estimated Free Recoil:
Cartridge Recoil Energy
------------------------------------------------
Standard .223 Rem ~4 ft-lb
Hypothetical .223 +Peak ~5–6 ft-lb
.22 Creedmoor ~8–10 ft-lb

Again, this is all speculative on a product that may never appear, and would have trade offs in some additional recoil and cost, but would let you gain back some velocity while using a shorter barrel. I have no idea what the new +Peak cases would mean for barrel life.

Is a 223 +Peak something you guys would want to see happen or are the trade-offs just not worth it?

**** chat gpt. Stop using AI bullshit for stuff like this.

 

[omicron1792]

Just for fun, I had ChatGPT speculate on how the 223 would perform if it got the +Peak treatment compared to a 22 CM.

77 TMK Velocity Estimates (Midpoints)

Barrel Length .223 +Peak .22 Creedmoor
------------------------------------------------
16" 2,900 fps 3,100 fps
18" 3,000 fps 3,213 fps
20" 3,075 fps 3,313 fps

Estimated Free Recoil:
Cartridge Recoil Energy
------------------------------------------------
Standard .223 Rem ~4 ft-lb
Hypothetical .223 +Peak ~5–6 ft-lb
.22 Creedmoor ~8–10 ft-lb

Again, this is all speculative on a product that may never appear, and would have trade offs in some additional recoil and cost, but would let you gain back some velocity while using a shorter barrel. I have no idea what the new +Peak cases would mean for barrel life.

Is a 223 +Peak something you guys would want to see happen or are the trade-offs just not worth it?

Yes. I would want that a lot.

 

[TBoschma]

Just for fun, I had ChatGPT speculate on how the 223 would perform if it got the +Peak treatment compared to a 22 CM.

77 TMK Velocity Estimates (Midpoints)

Barrel Length .223 +Peak .22 Creedmoor
------------------------------------------------
16" 2,900 fps 3,100 fps
18" 3,000 fps 3,213 fps
20" 3,075 fps 3,313 fps

Estimated Free Recoil:
Cartridge Recoil Energy
------------------------------------------------
Standard .223 Rem ~4 ft-lb
Hypothetical .223 +Peak ~5–6 ft-lb
.22 Creedmoor ~8–10 ft-lb

Again, this is all speculative on a product that may never appear, and would have trade offs in some additional recoil and cost, but would let you gain back some velocity while using a shorter barrel. I have no idea what the new +Peak cases would mean for barrel life.

Is a 223 +Peak something you guys would want to see happen or are the trade-offs just not worth it?

I Just started playing with the Badlands shell shock loaded ammo.... I think it is similar to the +peak and I got 2835 out of a 16' 223.... so its probably close but whats not comparable is how much you save if you are shooting factory ammo if you are comparing the 22cm to the 223 w/ high pressure rounds.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Are you taking this for sheep this yeah?

Yes sir.

 

[Gstew1930]

Yes sir.

 

[SC HUNTER]

Very rare case………..

Mostly this.

You guys should come to central WV the weekend before deer rifle.

The only place with more stupid in one spot is Walmart on the same weekend.

Summertime boat ramps on decent size lakes are also entertaining.

 

[SC HUNTER]

I came to add that my group of shooters (myself and 2 other most of the time) have killed 60ish hogs so far this summer using 223's with thermals. From little shits to "hook it to the ranger and drag it out of the field" size. 99% of the time the first one shot in the group folds like a napkin and the runners don't go far after being hit. 77 grain hollow points are what we're shooting right now. We need to start taking death pictures again.

I've thought a good bit about building a bolt action 223 to have for my youngest son to get started on when he gets centerfire cartridges.

 

[Thegman]

I said ‘tipped match’ a couple times if you were speed reading maybe you missed it. I’m like many here and all discussion revolves around those, eldm or tmk, tomato tomahto.

So, ELD-M = TMK? Nope

88 ELD-M = 88 TMK ? Probably nope, we'll see

.... Percent that difference however you like, by weight difference or by sd difference, ... see what percentage that is and which it’s closer to...weight or sd difference and you might really be cookin with gas to project what the 88 will do over the 77.

Aren't you supposed to be mathing all this out so we don't need to look at actual results any longer?

The bullets are equal diameter...so... (88 - 77) / 77 = (88*7000/.224^2 - 77*7000/.224^2) / 77*7000/.224^2

The former is just a lot quicker shorthand for someone that actually understands math... but also understands there are so many other variables in play that actual results will tell the story well, while "this times that divided by that times this other thing" will probably not.

Try harder

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Just for fun, I had ChatGPT speculate on how the 223 would perform if it got the +Peak treatment compared to a 22 CM.

77 TMK Velocity Estimates (Midpoints)

Barrel Length .223 +Peak .22 Creedmoor
------------------------------------------------
16" 2,900 fps 3,100 fps
18" 3,000 fps 3,213 fps
20" 3,075 fps 3,313 fps

Estimated Free Recoil:
Cartridge Recoil Energy
------------------------------------------------
Standard .223 Rem ~4 ft-lb
Hypothetical .223 +Peak ~5–6 ft-lb
.22 Creedmoor ~8–10 ft-lb

Again, this is all speculative on a product that may never appear, and would have trade offs in some additional recoil and cost, but would let you gain back some velocity while using a shorter barrel. I have no idea what the new +Peak cases would mean for barrel life.

Is a 223 +Peak something you guys would want to see happen or are the trade-offs just not worth it?

G$ already showed this off last year after the 7BC release

 

[ckt3]

Very rare case………..

Mostly this.

You guys should come to central WV the weekend before deer rifle.

The only place with more stupid in one spot is Walmart on the same weekend.

That weekend at my local gun range sounds like a WWI creeping barrage. A whole line of 300 Win Mags. No muzzle without a brake. If you venture into the rifle area, you leave with a rung bell.