.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[KHntr]

I switched up components recently that should handle the pressure better, ie Starline 5.56, CCI 450’s and Lever (25.5). Loaded at 2.52” OAL. 2713 avg.

No pressure signs except the slight cratering of the primers that I almost always get, probably because of the firing pin to firing pin hole diameter in the bolt body. Second firing is fine so far. Primers are nice and tight.

Pretty much the same exactly load I use for ELD m and TMK’s, except mine are only 2.431” and I get 2740-2750fps in my AI.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Well hell, all we need to know is S.D. to know a bullet's terminal performance? So all this time, 88 ELD-M, Sierra 90 MK, Berger 90 VLD and now the 88 TMK are interchangeable with respect to terminal performance? Why didn't you tell us sooner?

Come on @Stinky Coyote, try not to be a buffoon...try hard.

I said ‘tipped match’ a couple times if you were speed reading maybe you missed it. I’m like many here and all discussion revolves around those, eldm or tmk, tomato tomahto.

What’s the common theme here on the 77 vs 73? Similar except the 77 goes a bit deeper. Percent that difference however you like, by weight difference or by sd difference, that’s how much more better the heavier one is. Even if consensus is couple inches (14” vs 16” or whatever) deeper then see what percentage that is and which it’s closer to...weight or sd difference and you might really be cookin with gas to project what the 88 will do over the 77. Buy, shoot and carry on. Otherwise it’s all just entertainment for enjoyment looking over the result of work pics. Which I like very much too. See it however you like, boil down the recipe however you like, make it easy or make it hard.

Or even better see what the sd of the 88 is and if anything else known around here ‘tipped match’ regardless of caliber is close to that and if it’s a proven formula? The pattern/formula reveals itself.

Oh, and you’re welcome.

 

[RockAndSage]

The data presented here would be my only reason for trying the 77 gr TMK again.

Basically if a bunch of guys on the internet weren't saying it was awesome and posting pictures I'd see no logical reason to keep experimenting after a 223 TMK made an unimpressive hole.

Maybe i got the one weird reasult. But I just helped a guy with another grizzly he shot with a 308 and a 178 gr ELDX. The wound channel was 19 inches then it exited. The wound was wider all the way through. That's typical for 308 and similar sized cartridges in my experience. Never had a 30 cal make a hole as small as the 77 TMK out of the 223 AR.

Now those 88 Gr TMK pics look promising. That black bear isn't hugely smaller than the grizzly my buddy got with the 223 but the damage looks more impressive.

I've gotten the impression that bears are built a bit differently from things like elk and moose, in terms of how their hides do things like minimize blood loss, maybe that their bodies are a bit more flexible than cervids, etc. And the evidence I've seen from 7mm and 30cal tipped match bullets is that they're absolutely overkill on elk, deer, etc - yet it seems you're saying in bear they're more or less sufficient. Is there any possibility here that bear bodies just behave a little differently in getting shot? Complete conjecture, but the thought does make me wonder. Any of you guys with extensive bear killing experience have any thoughts if there are any differences, even slight ones?

 

[RockAndSage]

I have a 20" Howa Mini Action that shoots Black Hills 5.56 77tmk at 2759 fps and the AAC 77tmk @ 2689 fps. These are all factory loaded AR length rounds. I would say you should see something between 2650 and 2800 fps from a 20" barrel which will give you a maximum terminal range from 425 yards to 575 yards depending upon your velocity and atmosphere.

Jay

Is this with an 1800fps minimum velocity?

 

[The Guide]

Is this with an 1800fps minimum velocity?

Yes, 425 yards @ 250' DA @ 40⁰ @ 2650 fps and then 575 yards @ 5,250' DA @ 40⁰ @ 2800 fps.

Jay

 

[Moose83]

I've gotten the impression that bears are built a bit differently from things like elk and moose, in terms of how their hides do things like minimize blood loss, maybe that their bodies are a bit more flexible than cervids, etc. And the evidence I've seen from 7mm and 30cal tipped match bullets is that they're absolutely overkill on elk, deer, etc - yet it seems you're saying in bear they're more or less sufficient. Is there any possibility here that bear bodies just behave a little differently in getting shot? Complete conjecture, but the thought does make me wonder. Any of you guys with extensive bear killing experience have any thoughts if there are any differences, even slight ones?

I wouldn't say I have extensive experience, but from what I've seen a bears under fur does a very good job of soaking up whatever blood they do leak. Also depending on when you shoot them they can have a lot of subcutaneous fat which can also plug off bullets holes causing poor blood trails. Other than that I wouldn't say they are built any tougher than an ungulate... if anything they are lighter boned. Also, like anything else, bears can have different body composition, ie, some are long and lanky, while others are built like a body builder.

 

[Luke S]

I shot all my whitetail deer long ago. Mostly with 30 caliber CoreLocks. So not sure how to compare to bears with a different bullet.

A proper hit on a broadside bear will be farther back than on a broadside deer. That seems to help with bloodshot meat. The last bear with a 308 was hit a bit farther forward and the top of that quarter was super blood shot. If i was shooting little deer I'd use a smaller caliber or a less "explosive " bullet if I had a 308.

I'm not saying my experience with the 223 was bad, just a notable step down in tissue damage from a 30 caliber with ELDMs or ELDXs as well as bigger bores with premium bullets. For deer the 223 might be "just right" because you want something left to eat. I like a bit more tissue damage for bears.