.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Formidilosus]

Before I (or someone else) respond to this, genuine question: is this a troll post or a real post?

It’s all troll and real from him. Read any of his posts and it’s all the same boomer generation nonsense.

 

[Speaks]

For Hunting where the first shot counts and it is unlikely you will shoot more than 3 times if that I'm pretty sure most of us can put a very good hit on a deer with pretty much any rifle we are comfortable with. Shooting groups from a benchrest, getting up into ten rounds has nothing to do with any kind of hunting other than colony varmints. I have a shooting table right past my fence at the beginning of my driveway. I can pick a rifle and go sit at the bench and put a bullet from any of my tuned up hunting rifles exactly where I want it. Would 10 shot groups be bigger with say my 30-06 compared to my 243 or 223? Probably. How about one shot a day for ten days? Maybe but 1/4" isn't going to matter in a hunting situation just as we don't shoot ten shots at a deer.

Does recoil really figure into hunting scenarios? How many deer are shot from benchrests? How many shots are placed poorly because the shooter was excited? I have shot a lot of game and never noticed the recoil even with a 338 Win mag. If you flinch or pull the shot are you going to blame it on recoil or trigger control? For experienced hunters and shooters I'm pretty sure with a rifle I am used to shooting the first round is going exactly where I want it to Even from my 30-06, even from my 35 Whelen. I can say the same for my 22 ARC, my 223, my 243, my 257, my 260 Rem, my 7-08, my 7x57,my 280 AI or my 308.

I dont really shoot from a bench other than zeroing a rifle or checking a new ammo. Shooing from field positions on my range either at groups or steel I shoot better with my 223 than my 270. Lets for the sake of argument call it 1 inch vs 2 inch. They are not the exact same gun and I am not saying its all due to recoil, thats beside the point.

Shooting a deer at 100 yards nearly always works fine for either. Take it out to 300 yards shooting at a 6 inch steel and hit rate changes noticeably. Either would still kill a deer just fine still at 300 with a perfect shot. But combine a less than perfect shot with the error caused by the gun/recoil and you may get a wounded animal.

If most people shoot better with less recoil over enough shots there will eventually be a difference in outcome. Would I hesitate to hunt with a 270 or 30-06 or larger? No I would not. But if a lower recoiling set up kills just as effectively and I shoot it better why not use it?

Im not sure I want to make 223 my long term deer rifle, though it worked just fine for me this year. But I also cant see why I would make it a 30-06 when I could use something in the ballpark of a 6CM and have the same terminal effect but with a higher probability of a good shot.

I am sure some shooters are less effected by recoil than others. The effect is never zero though.

 

[goalie]

I'm not "recoil sensitive" and still shoot stuff with my 45/70.

But there's simply no denying that I shoot better with less recoil.

For me it's a fact that less recoil= more shooting, and more shooting= better shooting.

Plus, I'm really liking watching shots hit steel with my 5.56.

 

[Cmf88]

If you could only have one, would you choose the .223 over .22ARC? Biggest perk that I can see is price of ammo and factory rifle selection for .223. Do you have any other benefits that I’m missing? I’m stuck choosing between the two.

 

[Billogna]

If you could only have one, would you choose the .223 over .22ARC? Biggest perk that I can see is price of ammo and factory rifle selection for .223. Do you have any other benefits that I’m missing? I’m stuck choosing between the two.

The only reason to chose a 22ARC IMHO is if you are dead set on an AR platform and "need" the little extra velo. Even then it's hard to justify. .223 all day for the reasons you already mentioned.

 

[FredH]

The point being why would an experienced shooter flinch with any rifle he is competent with. And real world this thread is about hunting ,

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.​

Lots of people? Sure and that has nothing to do with the rifles does it. It has to do with the shooters experience. I just went outside and checked zero with a 350 Legend AR, a 243 Remington 700 and a 35 Whelen. The three shots went into less than an inch. I also shot two rounds from a Traditions V2 Outfitter in 357 Max, this load being a 180 gr. XTP and the rifle is sighted in for 158 gr. XTP's dead center at 100 yards. Not far off. Its 38 degrees outside. No rear bag. I would say this is a good representation of a first shot.



I never said there was no pain from shooting but it can be ignored. As for permanent hearing damage yep but for the last 30 years I have made every effort not to shoot without hearing protection.

Trigger control does not cause flinching but can be a product of it.

As for putting a poor shot into an animal yes. I misjudged the wind on a 450 yard shot and put the bullet through the elks liver. Tracked it down in the snow to find it barely alive. Took one more shot. Everyone has made poor hits. I have never lost an animal I hit but have found them eaten to the bone by coyotes.

 

[Billogna]

It's good to see the paper plate drill is alive and well!

 

[FredH]

If you could only have one, would you choose the .223 over .22ARC? Biggest perk that I can see is price of ammo and factory rifle selection for .223. Do you have any other benefits that I’m missing? I’m stuck choosing between the two.

I built a 22 ARC AR mostly to have a light 16" hunting AR. My 223 has a 22 inch barrel and with 75 gr. Bullets from the 22 ARC out of it's 16" barrel it can't match the 223 velocities. It would however beat another 16" 223 velocities. With the 73 gr. ELDM the 16" 22 ARC almost matches my 20" barreled AR in 5.56. My bolt 223 has a 1-9 twist so I am stuck using the shorter 75 gr. bullets. The 22 ARC does do something my bolt 223 can't and that is shoot 80 and 88 gr, ELDM's. Usable powder capacity differences between the two rounds in AR rifles is about three grains. I don't have a bolt 22 ARC but I bet one would get another 100-150 feet per second out of it and with similar barrel lengths it would have more velocity than any 223.

 

[FredH]

It's good to see the paper plate drill is alive and well!

Well I get them free and crosshairs stand out well against them.

 

[omicron1792]

If you could only have one, would you choose the .223 over .22ARC? Biggest perk that I can see is price of ammo and factory rifle selection for .223. Do you have any other benefits that I’m missing? I’m stuck choosing between the two.

I had the same question a couple of years ago. What it came down to for me is I hunt mainly in the south and just don’t have shots over 400 yards. So 223 wins with better selection, longer barrel life, and cheaper ammo.

Only real reason to move to 22 creed or arc is for that extra 100-300 yards of velocity in the upset range of the bullet.

 

[Speaks]

I guess if 5 shots all over a paper plate at 100 yards for a properly zeroed rifle then we are talking about different things anyway.

 

[FredH]

I dont really shoot from a bench other than zeroing a rifle or checking a new ammo. Shooing from field positions on my range either at groups or steel I shoot better with my 223 than my 270. Lets for the sake of argument call it 1 inch vs 2 inch. They are not the exact same gun and I am not saying its all due to recoil, thats beside the point.

Shooting a deer at 100 yards nearly always works fine for either. Take it out to 300 yards shooting at a 6 inch steel and hit rate changes noticeably. Either would still kill a deer just fine still at 300 with a perfect shot. But combine a less than perfect shot with the error caused by the gun/recoil and you may get a wounded animal.

If most people shoot better with less recoil over enough shots there will eventually be a difference in outcome. Would I hesitate to hunt with a 270 or 30-06 or larger? No I would not. But if a lower recoiling set up kills just as effectively and I shoot it better why not use it?

Im not sure I want to make 223 my long term deer rifle, though it worked just fine for me this year. But I also cant see why I would make it a 30-06 when I could use something in the ballpark of a 6CM and have the same terminal effect but with a higher probability of a good shot.

I am sure some shooters are less effected by recoil than others. The effect is never zero though.

If I were plinking or shooting steel I have rounds to do that with. A 6Grendel, a 6.5 Grendel are far more fun to play wiith than bigger rounds. My long range steel rifle is a 280AI and I'm thinking about putting it in a heavier stock but it has several 9" groups to it's credit at 1000 yards. If I am expecting shots out to and past 300 yards I take a bigger rifle than a 223. Starting with a 243 going up to a 30-06 and I don't like shooting at anything more than 450 yards away. I was for several years really into the 270 and still have three of them. I guess I shot so much game with them I lost interest. Great round really.

 

[FredH]

I guess if 5 shots all over a paper plate at 100 yards for a properly zeroed rifle then we are talking about different things anyway.

So three rifles checking zero going into less than an inch and two shots out of a 357 Max less than an inch apart from a rifle sighted in with a different load aren't good enough for you? Lets see you put up a target fired with 4 rifles and recreate it.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

So three rifles checking zero going into less than an inch and two shots out of a 357 Max less than an inch apart from a rifle sighted in with a different load aren't good enough for you? Lets see you put up a target fired with 4 rifles and recreate it.

Hey man, your plate is upside down.

 

[Speaks]

So three rifles checking zero going into less than an inch and two shots out of a 357 Max less than an inch apart from a rifle sighted in with a different load aren't good enough for you? Lets see you put up a target fired with 4 rifles and recreate it.

I guess I assumed 100 yard zero on all of them.... could well be mistaken on that though. Also no dot to aim at so I should cut some slack.

At the moment I only have my 223 and 6.5 CM sighted in but were I to shoot them both at 1 inch dots at 100 all the shots would be touching the dot.

Really though top 3 are pretty good and the other two are close to each other as well. Not sure exactly what we are proving with shooting at an unmarked plate though. I have not seen anyone argue that a moderately experienced shooter cant hit a plate at 100 with any caliber.

 

[swavescatter]

 

[Gravel Road]

How did the tmk's do fur wise ?

One ran to where it couldn't be retrieved and the other had a pretty big exit. Too small of a sample, but I don't think they are fur friendly. Shot a coyote in the neck two weeks ago at 350 yards with a 73 gr ELDM and it had a nice small exit. Sample size of one, so the next might be an explosion. I'd think a lighter bullet would be better but I'm using the same load for familiarity.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Before I (or someone else) respond to this, genuine question: is this a troll post or a real post?

Mostly troll. It’s interesting because anyone who’s actually gone out and seen it, experienced it, shot it, and drawn meaningful conclusions never talks like that guy is talking in real life. It’s a weird internet thing.

 

[Gettincloser]

Let me play catch-up...

Vented gas cans are the trophy in that picture.
Old ones I assume?

You can buy the good old fashioned nozzles on Amazon. This is the 1st one that pulled up. Lots of different (old) designs to pick from. Way better than the new garbage that spills fuel everywhere and takes 5 minutes to get 1 qt of fuel out!

Amazon.com: 3 SCEPTER SPOUT KITS #03647 Gas Can Parts 4 PCS SPOUTS/SCREW CAP COLLAR/STOPPER/REAR VENT.Kit works on MIDWEST,AMERI-CAN,PLASTIC EAGLE PG5 & KP SERIES,IGLOO,UNISTREAM,MOELLER FUEL DIESEL KEROSENE JUGS : Automotive

Amazon.com: 3 SCEPTER SPOUT KITS #03647 Gas Can Parts 4 PCS SPOUTS/SCREW CAP COLLAR/STOPPER/REAR VENT.Kit works on MIDWEST,AMERI-CAN,PLASTIC EAGLE PG5 & KP SERIES,IGLOO,UNISTREAM,MOELLER FUEL DIESEL KEROSENE JUGS : Automotive

www.amazon.com

If you could only have one, would you choose the .223 over .22ARC? Biggest perk that I can see is price of ammo and factory rifle selection for .223. Do you have any other benefits that I’m missing? I’m stuck choosing between the two.

As stated prior. If you hand load, a 223 AI might be the ticket as you can spec your barrel and still shoot factory ammo. The (2) benefits of the 22 ARC over the 223 (1) more velocity with same weight bullet or same (ish) velocity with heavier bullets.

The 223 does have cheaper ammo. However the Black hills 77gr TMK is starting to get to the sam price as the 88gr eldm ammo (when I buy it in bulk at the local gun shop).

If you reload, the 223 ammo can be a touch hotter and you can load the bullet you want.

If you reload and use a bolt gun, you can make the 22 ARC scream! (They factory load to a lower pressure for AR platforms but they can handload a good deal hotter/faster for a bolt gun!)

It all sounds cool but how fa are you really going to shoot. I chopped my 22e to 18" and it keeps 1800fps just past 350yds. Leave it a full length and you are at 400 yards. If you want to hunt at 600 yards, the 22 ARC is the answer!

I personally (opinion) love the 22 ARC as I do not handload and I have never hunted past 400 yards. I just like it. But my 223(s) can do the same inside the ranges I hunt no questions asked.

For me, the ultimate would be a 22 ARC bolt gun and a hand loader to build out the perfect combo in a short 16" barrel and still go past 500 to 600 yards!

 

[Anschutz]

I know he's trolling but I'll engage with the caveat that I've never killed game with a .223.

BLUF: You will shoot a 223 more accurately than a higher recoiling rifle. If you read this thread and decide hunting with a 223 isn't for you, a 223 trainer will improve your shooting with your hunting rig.

When you look at competitions where round counts for a day are somewhat high and endurance matters (remaining in position), such as 300m 3-Position (40ea Prone, Standing, Kneeling), 300m Prone (60 shots prone), Mid and Long Range Prone (generally 3 strings of 20 shots), you see competitors using lower recoiling rounds. 6BR dominates the 300m disciplines and is popular in mid-range. Bigger 6s (6XC, .243, 6CM) are pretty popular for 1000. They do well in the wind and don't beat the shooter up.

Lower recoil also allows you to train more. Our friend above said 450 yards is his max which should be inside the envelope of the 223 loads discussed here. Your 35 Whelen will make that shot but I'd rather shoot 100 rounds of 223 in practice than 25 rounds of 35 Whelen. I personally enjoy shooting and hunting with my .270 but acknowledge that I am missing out on training value, burning up more money, and moving the factory barrel one step closer to replacement because I don't have a matching 223 to train with. I shoot a decent amount of 223 in Across the Course (on my 3rd barrel, close to putting on #4), but a 14lb AR is much different than an 8lb bolt action and I'm not shooting from field positions.

I read this thread entirely when it was 250 or so pages and have perused it now and then since. I find it interesting how well those little bullets have performed for folks. Are most of them whitetails where I needed no "convincing"? Sure. Is the sample size on larger game small? No.

I'll end it on this. You will shoot better with a .223 than your 35 Whelen but you'll also shoot the 35 Whelen better if you get it a friend in 223 to train with. I'll probably never fully switch to .223, but I'm in the lookout for a Model 70 in 223 as a trainer.