.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[BjornF16]

With non CNS hits the Partition will kill more quickly.

So you agree bullet construction matters.

 

[Robobiss]

So you agree bullet construction matters.

I think you and Fred are on the same team here. He is just getting slightly off topic, but not really at the same time.

What I’m gathering from what he is saying, actually does make sense and I’m very much in the “energy is a useless metric” camp.

To explain (maybe) better what he is saying, if the testing media was very deep, say 6’, and you fired a 77 grain FMJ, and measured the material displaced, and then fired a 77 TMK and measured the material displaced, they would be the same if the impact velocity was the same. The 77 TMK would have a very wide wound channel, but likely be sub 2’ deep. And the 77 FMJ might be a few feet, maybe 4’+ deep, and be very narrow.

Displacing tissue takes energy, and the bullet loses energy (by losing velocity) by displacing tissue. In theory, if you were able to stop both projectiles in the media, and they had the same energy at impact, would they not displace the same volume of material? We don’t care about a super long wound that’s 4 or 5’ long as hunters, we want 12-14” of “die right now”.

At least that is what I think he’s getting at, but it has been a long day so maybe I’m out in left field too.

 

[TxxAgg]

77 tmk strikes again

 

[sierracharlie338]

It is obvious that being a professor is beyond your reach. We are simply discussing velocity, energy and mass's relation to tissue disruption and since we are talking about a cartridge on the lower level of the energy spectrum speculation on it is relevant. I do use 22 centerfires for hunting, I just built myself a 22 ARC and I am not shitting on this thread. You are with your off topic BS.

Aww your feelings got hurt, I’m sorry that wasn’t my intent. I was simply asking for you to take your argumentative responses and now insults to its own thread about how important energy is. But clearly your little feelers got hurt so you felt the need to type mean things…..

Last I looked you have submitted a single data point to this thread but other than that, fodder (that means poop, professor).

 

[Schmo]

If someone were to need/want more penetration than a TMK/ELD, I’d suppose the Barnes Match Burner would be great as long as it acts like the other Match Burners. 2,000 fps minimum impact velocity, but penetrates 3-6 inches before expansion. Maybe someone has tested on game? They make it in 77 and 85 gr for 22 cal

 

[260284]

My grandson shot a bigger doe Sunday night just before the end of the KS rifle season. 127 yards quartering to, she ran about 70 yards in a half circle before she dropped. Massive lung damage and a broken shoulder, didn't recover the bullet and it did not exit. She was 90lbs hanging carcass weight at the processor. 77gr TMK at 2700 fps.

I felt like a pack mule for the walk in.

 

[Shraggs]

All the kinetic energy calculation does is make an effort to describe power. Power is not directly correlated with killing. Two bullets of different construction, say a FMJ and a Nosler Partiton can have the same level of energy yet their killing ability will hinge on shot placement. With head shots both will kill instantly. With non CNS hits the Partition will kill more quickly. I have never met anyone who felt KE was the only mechanism involved in killing.

Confused here FredH… you’re new and chiming in as an expert to a multi year thread with nearly 10,000 posts? This ^ summarizes the point of small calibers with heavy fragmenting bullets in your own words - KE is not a predictor of killing wounds bullets make.

I think if you read the thread from the beginning, you’ll read countless folks like you and how it was hashed out over time, say about 9000 posts ago.

 

[Thegman]

But energy is how we measure the destruction velocity and mass can create. Bullet construction is the method we use to disperse energy. Energy as calculated is not a perfect measure but it is what we use.

No, it isn't how WE measure, necessarily. There's been a whole lot of destruction measurements done in this thread with nary a reference to energy.

Not saying energy isn't ultimately underneath what is seen, but without bullet construction, velocity and target information, KE information is largely useless. OTOH, with bullet construction and velocity information, KE information is largely unnecessary.

Comparing volume of holes in clay and whatnot due to KE, while interesting, doesn't provide a lot of useful information as far as killing game.

 

[dreamingWest]

I let my daughter choose between my suppressed Rokslide Special, my suppressed custom .260, and my Browning BAR .243. The Browning was the rifle I shot my first buck with. The custom .260 is a rifle I put together as a hybrid target and deer gun (prior to this Rokslide thread), and of course my Rokslide special is a cut and suppressed Tikka .223 in a RokStok.

She had shot the Tikka in the past and I had a good idea it would be selected. But I thought giving her the power to choose would only boost her confidence and motivate her to shoot the Tikka more before rifle season. I did make her shoot from a few "less than ideal" positions prior to our hunt.



I got to enjoy the classic walk-in-the-dark with her on Friday morning, but our hunt didn't last long. Right at legal light I spotted three does on a ridgeline at 275 yards. This was a freezer filling hunt for me, but before I set-up on a doe they got scattered by a young spike buck. My daughter, spoiledly glassing though my Swaro 8x32s ELs got excited and told me she didn't want to be picky and wait on a our old target buck. She would be happy with any buck. Needing meat, this was fine by me.

A few minutes later in the still early light, a wider racked buck came down the same ridgeline trail heading straight towards us. With the head-on view, I briefly thought this was the old target buck. Having already set myself up for a doe shot, my daughter and I swapped seats and she got comfortably in the scope. When the buck turned broadside and began moving, I quickly determined it was not our target buck, but watching her calmly track the buck in the Nightforce, the situation was too perfect to let it go. I told her if she was confident, take the shot as soon as he stopped.

I was watching the 108 yard shot through my binos when it impacted the buck and couldn't have been more pleased. She quickly racked another round as taught, but I called it off as I was already watching white belly fur and a very clearly DRT.



On the way back to the house we were reviewing the lucky hunt and the set-up and she asked me: "Dad, why would I ever use a different rifle?". Without getting into the weeds of longer range western hunts, I simply replied "No reason at all."

The next picture is the entrance of the bullet after it hit the back end of the buck's shoulder blade. The last picture shows the sunlit entrance into the cavity and the bullet's exit from from the chest cavity. 77 grain TMK at approximately 2500 fps impact.

 

[FredH]

No, it isn't how WE measure, necessarily. There's been a whole lot of destruction measurements done in this thread with nary a reference to energy.

Not saying energy isn't ultimately underneath what is seen, but without bullet construction, velocity and target information, KE information is largely useless. OTOH, with bullet construction and velocity information, KE information is largely unnecessary.

Comparing volume of holes in clay and whatnot due to KE, while interesting, doesn't provide a lot of useful information as far as killing game.

Using energy as a calculation to measure the volume created by mass and velocity does give an idea of it's capability. And it's true that clay in itself does not directly correlate to tissue disruption it does give you a way to compare what different bullets are capable of as far as moving material at impact.

 

[Colby]

Isn’t calibrated 10% ordnance gel already the agreed upon standard to predict tissue destruction in the terminal ballistics world?

 

[FredH]

Confused here FredH… you’re new and chiming in as an expert to a multi year thread with nearly 10,000 posts? This ^ summarizes the point of small calibers with heavy fragmenting bullets in your own words - KE is not a predictor of killing wounds bullets make.

I think if you read the thread from the beginning, you’ll read countless folks like you and how it was hashed out over time, say about 9000 posts ago.

KE is just a calculation based on mass and velocity. Hashed out what? It is obvious that the 223 with the right bullets has adequate velocity/mass/energy to kill. Nowhere have I said otherwise.

 

[FredH]

Isn’t calibrated 10% ordnance gel already the agreed upon standard to predict tissue destruction in the terminal ballistics world?

It is but it is impossible to accurately measue the volume caused by the dumping of the intangible quantity KE as it collapses in on itself.

 

[FredH]

I let my daughter choose between my suppressed Rokslide Special, my suppressed custom .260, and my Browning BAR .243. The Browning was the rifle I shot my first buck with. The custom .260 is a rifle I put together as a hybrid target and deer gun (prior to this Rokslide thread), and of course my Rokslide special is a cut and suppressed Tikka .223 in a RokStok.

She had shot the Tikka in the past and I had a good idea it would be selected. But I thought giving her the power to choose would only boost her confidence and motivate her to shoot the Tikka more before rifle season. I did make her shoot from a few "less than ideal" positions prior to our hunt.

View attachment 807650

I got to enjoy the classic walk-in-the-dark with her on Friday morning, but our hunt didn't last long. Right at legal light I spotted three does on a ridgeline at 275 yards. This was a freezer filling hunt for me, but before I set-up on a doe they got scattered by a young spike buck. My daughter, spoiledly glassing though my Swaro 8x32s ELs got excited and told me she didn't want to be picky and wait on a our old target buck. She would be happy with any buck. Needing meat, this was fine by me.

A few minutes later in the still early light, a wider racked buck came down the same ridgeline trail heading straight towards us. With the head-on view, I briefly thought this was the old target buck. Having already set myself up for a doe shot, my daughter and I swapped seats and she got comfortably in the scope. When the buck turned broadside and began moving, I quickly determined it was not our target buck, but watching her calmly track the buck in the Nightforce, the situation was too perfect to let it go. I told her if she was confident, take the shot as soon as he stopped.

I was watching the 108 yard shot through my binos when it impacted the buck and couldn't have been more pleased. She quickly racked another round as taught, but I called it off as I was already watching white belly fur and a very clearly DRT.

View attachment 807655

On the way back to the house we were reviewing the lucky hunt and the set-up and she asked me: "Dad, why would I ever use a different rifle?". Without getting into the weeds of longer range western hunts, I simply replied "No reason at all."

The next picture is the entrance of the bullet after it hit the back end of the buck's shoulder blade. The last picture shows the sunlit entrance into the cavity and the bullet's exit from from the chest cavity. 77 grain TMK at approximately 2500 fps impact.

View attachment 807657
View attachment 807658

Well done!

 

[FredH]

My grandson shot a bigger doe Sunday night just before the end of the KS rifle season. 127 yards quartering to, she ran about 70 yards in a half circle before she dropped. Massive lung damage and a broken shoulder, didn't recover the bullet and it did not exit. She was 90lbs hanging carcass weight at the processor. 77gr TMK at 2700 fps.

I felt like a pack mule for the walk in.
View attachment 807634View attachment 807635View attachment 807636View attachment 807637View attachment 807638View attachment 807639View attachment 807640View attachment 807641

Outstanding. You are carrying a load there.

 

[Formidilosus]

It is but it is impossible to accurately measue the volume caused by the dumping of the intangible quantity KE as it collapses in on itself.

Because a cerise level of KE does not create a certain level of demonstrable tissue damage. They don’t correlate, the ride using KE as any kind of supposed predictor is utterly meaningless.

To know what wound bullet creates in tissue you must shoot it into tissue or proper tissue simulate and measure the resulting physical wound. Once you do that, there is use for the KE number- you already have the actual information.

 

[mtnbound]

Using energy as a calculation to measure the volume created by mass and velocity does give an idea of it's capability. And it's true that clay in itself does not directly correlate to tissue disruption it does give you a way to compare what different bullets are capable of as far as moving material at impact.

I'm curious., what's the volume of a bullet with 2600ft/lbs, and what's the formula for calculation?

 

[Speaks]

Read a good chunk of this and think my next rifle will be a 223. With tmk 77s pretty much unsvailable in factory loads right now are the 73 eldms the preferred more svailable choice?