.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Macintosh]

Well first, he was measuring the deflection after 15 yards of the bullet going through willow and Alder- you can’t even see an animal through that. Even still here is a 6” difference in his results between the worst and best bullet/caliber. Third, he only had one “small caliber” in his test, and the results of the large calibers were all over the place.

His, like every public one before (as he stated) is way too short on sample size to draw any conclusions from. The bullet that did the best in his results, is also very poor terminally.

“Brush busting” is largely a myth about like ft-lbs of energy needed to kill. And even in well done, as well as it has been done testing; the results are all over the place. In brush that someone would actually shoot through (that is positive ID the animal and its anatomy), as many times a flat nosed solid .45 will deflect less, a small diameter pointed bullet won’t hit the brush at all. His deer picture at the end of the article is a perfect example- in that scenario, it’s going to be about even, or even favoring small diameter bullets. The larger bullet may deflect slightly less if it hits brush, but it’s going to hit more brush always due to larger diameter. The answer is to pick a hole and put the shot through it. If you are going to try to get a bullet through brush, expect deflection no matter what.


This was from a 270win and 130gr Partition. A 30 yard shot, the deer 5’ish yards on the other side of brush and small trees-

View attachment 719916


That’s the entrance, and the bullet was tumbling at impact. I’ve had tumbling/deflected bullets cause wounds and misses from .277 to 375’s and 45 and 50cal MZ bullets. Though I haven’t had it happen to 6.5m and below, that’s just sample size- they all do it.

We’re saying more or less the same thing even if I phrased it poorly. All the tests are 1 bullet or one group, all say results are going to be erratic because you hit different twigs every time, and all say “dont shoot thru brush”. Unfortunately shooting through a LOT of brush—it may not be as thick as what some picture all the time, but shooting through tiny windows in a wall of brush many yards thick would not be at all an exaggeration—is as normal as can be in some places. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes the bullet actually makes it through the window, but its never “controlled” enough to say why.

Photos for humor, not to make any point. Fwiw both were 250grain 45cal copper monos (barnes t-ez) fired from a muzzleloader at 45-70ish velocity, and neither connected with the deer on the other side. Neither is “brush” and neither was fired “through brush” intentionally, but it seemed a good time to drag them out.

 

[Formidilosus]

We’re saying more or less the same thing even if I phrased it poorly.

Yes sir.

All the tests are 1 bullet or one group, all say results are going to be erratic because you hit different twigs every time, and all say “dont shoot thru brush”. Unfortunately shooting through a LOT of brush—it may not be as thick as what some picture all the time, but shooting through tiny windows in a wall of brush many yards thick would not be at all an exaggeration—is as normal as can be in some places. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes the bullet actually makes it through the window, but its never “controlled” enough to say why.

Photos for humor, not to make any point. Fwiw both were 250grain 45cal copper monos (barnes t-ez) fired from a muzzleloader at 45-70ish velocity, and neither connected with the deer on the other side. Neither is “brush” and neither was fired “through brush” intentionally, but it seemed a good time to drag them out.

View attachment 719931View attachment 719932

Been there. The brush buster thing is just a red herring. After going through it all for years in SE thickets and swamps, it came back to- best results anre achieved with the rifle that was shot best.

 

[Unclecroc]

Iraq veteran 8888 did a test on brush deflection and it was quite interesting. Videos are on YouTube. He did small stuff up through 577 Snyder.

 

[ElPollo]

There is SO much fudd lore on brush and shooting I'm not sure I trust anything, but this is about the best I have seen. Tyler Freel seems pretty legit and he's a proponent of the efficacy of smaller cartridges with frangible bullets, but on this subject he's saying low velocity large-caliber bullets and copper monos worked best (but still unreliable) and basically saying from what he tested anything less than a 45-70 is dog doo for shooting through brush, and even that was dumb. Suspect a 223 is terrible to begin with, and a 223 with a frangible bullet is even worse. The overall conclusion is just dont shoot through brush. (and I'm one of those Vermont deer trackers mentioned, I am well aware of what the implications of "just dont shoot through brush" are)

The Best Brush Busting Bullets Put to the Test

Brush rifles and brush bullets have been a topic of conversation for decades, but how effective are they at punching through thickets?

www.outdoorlife.com

From the article.

“Unsurprisingly, what I found is that you should never intentionally shoot through the brush unless the animal is already hit, and you must make a follow-up shot. Any bullets can be deflected by almost any brush—some worse than others.”

 

[ElPollo]

Thanks. Was hoping there would be some studies folks know of.

I’ve read elsewhere discussion about .556 deflecting/tumbling more easily than 7.62 and generalized talk about terminal possibilities when a round tumbles prior to impact. Rudimentary experiments (like below) are sometimes linked. I know it’s hard to control for all the variables, but I assume there is some more scientific information somewhere.

The Box O' Truth #40 - Deflected Bullets and the...

Many of us are hunters and some are combatants. We all know that if a bullet hits a hard object, it can be deflected in a completely different path than the one it was traveling before the hit. A question we want to test today is this: Are some bullets more resistant to being deflected than...

www.theboxotruth.com

I fail to see how you could reasonably make any conclusions from that article other than deflection happens.

 

[plebe]

Iraq veteran 8888 did a test on brush deflection and it was quite interesting. Videos are on YouTube. He did small stuff up through 577 Snyder.

Found it, thanks.

 

[ElPollo]

Found it, thanks.

If the intent is shooting something you can barely see at 50 yards I would question whether that is a safe practice to pursue in the first place.

 

[Tahr]

Here is an entry from a 77TMK at 150 yards shot through very light brush. Nothing thicker than a little finger and the deer quite visible. Obviously tumbling or unstable. I couldn't see any evidence of broken or damaged twigs but obviously deflected.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Here is an entry from a 77TMK at 150 yards shot through very light brush. Nothing thicker than a little finger and the deer quite visible. Obviously tumbling or unstable. I couldn't see any evidence of broken or damaged twigs but obviously deflected.

View attachment 720010View attachment 720011

I've had a very similar entry from a 75gr ELD from sub 20 yards through brush.

 

[plebe]

I fail to see how you could reasonably make any conclusions from that article other than deflection happens.

As stated, I’m looking for more scientific data.

If the intent is shooting something you can barely see at 50 yards I would question whether that is a safe practice to pursue in the first place.

That’s not the intent.

 

[Decker9]

You're gonna make a stock for the .223 too right???

Most defiantly! Unless I happen to find the right one already in walnut. A nice little walnut sporter .223 would be a super fun I say!

 

[Billogna]

Most defiantly! Unless I happen to find the right one already in walnut. A nice little walnut sporter .223 would be a super fun I say!

Can't wait to follow along!!

 

[Shraggs]

A 223 w/77 tmk, specifically have taken oddles if big game - pigs, deer and elk, one elk at 803 yards by Form of course.

Thegman takes the holy grail threshold of “enough” gun for general big game by taking a medium grizzly with a not ideal shot and it drops dead in 50 yards… yet questions of ethics exist about the lack of lethality due to low ft pounds of energy.

Could pnwgator, form, thegman shoot the next level?

I saw on tv this island, it has dinosaurs - I’m think a 12 ton t-Rex. Would this get the community thinking…

Thoughts?

 

[Formidilosus]

A 223 w/77 tmk, specifically have taken oddles if big game - pigs, deer and elk, one elk at 803 yards by Form of course.

Thegman takes the holy grail threshold of “enough” gun for general big game by taking a medium grizzly with a not ideal shot and it drops dead in 50 yards… yet questions of ethics exist about the lack of lethality due to low ft pounds of energy.

Could pnwgator, form, thegman shoot the next level?

I saw on tv this island, it has dinosaurs - I’m think a 12 ton t-Rex. Would this get the community thinking…

Thoughts?

I would move right outside the park if a T-Rex existed.

 

[omicron1792]

I would move right outside the park if a T-Rex existed.

The real question is would you use a 77TMK….

 

[TML75]

Most defiantly! Unless I happen to find the right one already in walnut. A nice little walnut sporter .223 would be a super fun I say!

How about this one?

Tikka T3x Hunter .223 Rem 16.1" 1:8" 1/2"x28" Bbl Matte Hunter Stock/Blued 3rd Ranch Rifle JRTXAR312/16

Tikka T3x Hunter .223 Rem 16.1" 1:8" 1/2"x28" Bbl Matte Hunter Stock/Blued 3rd Ranch Rifle JRTXAR312/16 For Sale

www.eurooptic.com

 

[Formidilosus]

The real question is would you use a 77TMK….

An arrow.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

A 223 w/77 tmk, specifically have taken oddles if big game - pigs, deer and elk, one elk at 803 yards by Form of course.

Thegman takes the holy grail threshold of “enough” gun for general big game by taking a medium grizzly with a not ideal shot and it drops dead in 50 yards… yet questions of ethics exist about the lack of lethality due to low ft pounds of energy.

Could pnwgator, form, thegman shoot the next level?

I saw on tv this island, it has dinosaurs - I’m think a 12 ton t-Rex. Would this get the community thinking…

Thoughts?

A Tikka is probably more reliable than the SPAS12s they issue on that island.

 

[Shraggs]

I would move right outside the park if a T-Rex existed.

May I come? We could pick off those pesky little velociraptors that escape the fence.

I’ll use my 223/77 I like the insurance of a little more ft pounds than an arrow.

Maybe Form could use a handicap with me there, my toddlers old daisy Red Ryder, but to be fair it pulls left.

 

[Formidilosus]

May I come? We could pick off those pesky little velociraptors that escape the fence

They’d be a pet.