.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I hope this isn't too much of a tangent for this thread, but I have a curiosity. There's so much .223 knowledge and experience in this thread, that I suspect someone knows. Let's dismiss the "why?"

What would you expect a subsonic .223 55 grain soft point to do on a deer head shot at 50 yards and a deer vitals shot at 50 yards? Would it expand? Would expansion be beneficial or a detriment to lethality in either case? How deeply would it penetrate?

Do any of you have experience with subsonic .223 on deer? Either factory or handload.

If you were to undertake the task of developing a subsonic load for a .223 for 50 yard max shots on deer, using a rifle with a 9 twist, how would you go about it?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

I hope this isn't too much of a tangent for this thread, but I have a curiosity. There's so much .223 knowledge and experience in this thread, that I suspect someone knows. Let's dismiss the "why?"

What would you expect a subsonic .223 55 grain soft point to do on a deer head shot at 50 yards and a deer vitals shot at 50 yards? Would it expand? Would expansion be beneficial or a detriment to lethality in either case? How deeply would it penetrate?

Do any of you have experience with subsonic .223 on deer? Either factory or handload.

If you were to undertake the task of developing a subsonic load for a .223 for 50 yard max shots on deer, using a rifle with a 9 twist, how would you go about it?

I'll preface this by stating all of this is a SWAG.

I wouldn't expect a generic 55gr soft point to expand at all at subsonic velocities. I would limit my shots to head shots only. Expansion would be beneficial similar to pistol bullet expansion, .224 is a small hole. I would expect full penetration on deer vitals, seeing as no expansion with a hard core bullet is not being upset in the tissue.

No experience here with any subsonic killing even though I've sat out several times with 300blk and subs.

If I was going to do it, I would either cast soft lead projectiles and powder coat them or use Maker Bullets subsonic .224 bullets. Unfortunately Maker says their 55gr subsonic bullet needs a 1:8 twist.

 

[Formidilosus]

I hope this isn't too much of a tangent for this thread, but I have a curiosity. There's so much .223 knowledge and experience in this thread, that I suspect someone knows. Let's dismiss the "why?"

What would you expect a subsonic .223 55 grain soft point to do on a deer head shot at 50 yards and a deer vitals shot at 50 yards? Would it expand? Would expansion be beneficial or a detriment to lethality in either case? How deeply would it penetrate?

No, they will not expand. They will penetrate 18-20” minimum, and tumble between 8-12” deep with little to no deformation. Chest shots will generally exit with a long incapacitation time- this should be a head shot only proposition.

 

[Lawnboi]

I don’t at all understand the hard on guys get for subsonic rifle cartridges. Maybe someone can explain.

A subsonic 22 cal, isn’t that basically a 22lr

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t at all understand the hard on guys get for subsonic rifle cartridges. Maybe someone can explain.

A subsonic 22 cal, isn’t that basically a 22lr

Yes. But a subsonic 30cal isn’t much better with most bullets either.

 

[Formidilosus]

I want different bullets for each rifle to prevent mixing loads so that eliminates the 77 tmk and 73 eldm.

Why not just shoot the same ammo?

 

[grappling_hook]

Fellas I appreciate all the info from this. I have some 77 tmks for my 20” 223 wylde and some 73 Eldms for my ruger predator.

I now have a new project of a 16” AR with red dot. I want it to be a do all round within 100 yards. Everything from deer to hogs to home defense.

I want different bullets for each rifle to prevent mixing loads so that eliminates the 77 tmk and 73 eldm.

What bullet would you chose besides the 77 tmk and 73 eldm? My shop has Hornady 60 SP but afraid my 1/7 twist will be too fast.

I did a thread search here but everything came back to the 77 and 73.

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Would you mind sharing which handguard is on that rifle?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I'm in the process of trying to consolidate to as few components and ammo types as possible. Keeping different ammo for different rifles has been a pain for over a decade.

 

[Firth]

Why not just shoot the same ammo?

Are you suggesting that he shouldn't load up special ammo with the charge weight and seating depth tuned perfectly to the rifle?

Seriously though, all my .223s get fed 75 bthp, because I got a couple thousand cheap and I've decided it's good enough for what I'm going to do with them. Full disclosure, I did just buy a bunch of factory second 77 tmks.

 

[Lawnboi]

I'm in the process of trying to consolidate to as few components and ammo types as possible. Keeping different ammo for different rifles has been a pain for over a decade.

Do you reload? This is part of the reason I started reloading. Really easy to keep a keg of powder and a few thousand bullets around and have the same exact ammo throughout the life of a barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well I’m afraid I’ll end up grabbing the wrong box and end up over pressuring or something. Like the 77 tmk load is loaded longer with special mags. I guess I could use the tmk lol


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FL resize everything and load the TMK to 2.26oal. Everything will feed/function and you don’t have to deal with the BS.

 

[jadkins223]

Would you mind sharing which handguard is on that rifle?

That’s actually a BCA stock upper sir. But I did add some nice finishes. Magpul SL stock. Rise rave 140 trigger. It’s a sweet little rig man


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[jadkins223]

FL resize everything and load the TMK to 2.26oal. Everything will feed/function and you don’t have to deal with the BS.

10-4 sir that simplifies it. For the 20” 223 wylde I had to get special mags and load them to 2.310 to get them to group well. So I’ll just have separate mags for it and roll with it. Thanks


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[ResearchinStuff]

Do you reload? This is part of the reason I started reloading. Really easy to keep a keg of powder and a few thousand bullets around and have the same exact ammo throughout the life of a barrel.

yes. and even so, consolidation is my current strategy, preferably on stuff that is consistently available. Various components have gone through cycles of poor availbility since at least 2012. We see it in this thread with the 77 tmk and IMR 8208 too.

 

[Lawnboi]

yes. and even so, consolidation is my current strategy, preferably on stuff that is consistently available. Various components have gone through cycles of poor availbility since at least 2012. We see it in this thread with the 77 tmk and IMR 8208 too.

I did nearly the same thing, but at a time when you could actually get 77tmk. I also only have 3 hunting guns, so that helps. 3006, creedmoors and the 223.

Now for what Iv got I pretty much will buy all the h4350 and Xbr that I can, and that’s it.

Appropriate amount of good brass and I only have to worry about bullets.

I’d like to buy a barrels worth of bullets, and have/will if I can in the future but that can be a tough one to come up with the capital for.

I just got tired of factory ammo avaliablilty, and the fact that I had many lots. I do t think I’ll ever be in a place where it’s reasonable to buy a barrels worth of factory ammo in the current market. An 8lb jug of Xbr and a couple thousand TMK are well within reach though.

 

[fwafwow]

Out of stock

Back in stock

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

Can I load 77grain SMKs with the same charge and expect closeish results for a slightly cheaper target/training option? Obviously we are all trying to save TMKs given how hard they are to find. Currently using 24.5grains of TAC at 2.26

 

[BCsteve]

I don’t know if you’ll see me shooting elk and moose with it but there’s no denying that the T3X and 77gr TMK is an accurate combo!

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I don’t at all understand the hard on guys get for subsonic rifle cartridges. Maybe someone can explain.

A subsonic 22 cal, isn’t that basically a 22lr

I don't have a hard on for it.

Which subsonic 22 LR load would be the equivalent of a 55 grain 223 bullet, what 22 rifle is twisted to deliver it, and which state would allow it?

I may have the opportunity to lease some acreage that abuts an upscale residential area. The situation is such that window rattling big booms associated with hunting could create enough pressure on the landowner to disallow the lease.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

The post is “.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose”. As I stated earlier, if it’s legal in your state go for it. Even with the 77 gr TMK, it will fall below 1000 ft/lbs of energy around 160 yards. For small deer at close range (less than 200 yds) its probably fine. For large deer I feel it’s marginal, especially at range. For bear, elk or moose its probably unethical. Magnum cartridges are unnecessary however I feel we owe the animal a quick clean dispatch with a cartridge best matched for the quarry. I realize this is an unpopular position on this thread, however I respectfully disagree. After 30 years of military experience with 5.56 cartridge, I have doubts on its suitability for big game.

Ftlbs of energy is somewhat irrelevant. Guys say you have to have 1500 for big game or whatever and it is nothing more than an arbitrary number. A 10mm at the muzzle has like 700 - if you shove a 10mm behind the shoulder of a moose and pull the trigger will it kill it? Absolutely. You weren’t shooting the right bullets in the military - so it isnt a fair representation of what the cartridge is capable of.