.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[hickswr]

I have a ton of 5.56 and .223 brass. Mixed head stamps/ brands. If im loading basic book loads with book OAL, will there be a meaningfull difference in POI for training purposes, shooting steel?

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Depends on your definition of “meaningful” and shooting distance

 

[grfox92]

Depends on your definition of “meaningful” and shooting distance

Id say steel out to 500 yards.

For sake of the example, would groups be different at 100 yards with a basic load with different brass?

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[glock233]

Id say steel out to 500 yards.

For sake of the example, would groups be different at 100 yards with a basic load with different brass?

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Different brass will yield different enough outcomes that it’s just not good. I’d at least sort by brand if you’re loading. You don’t need a million pieces of brass. 200 should be good. Hopefully you’ve got some Lake City in there.

Or just buy 500 bone frog 77tmk loads new and there’s your brass forever.

 

[Jimbee]

Id say steel out to 500 yards.
I once loaded 23.5 gr 8208 and 77tmk in different headstamped .223 range brass just to see if it made a difference. Iirc, I shot a 20ish shot group that was normal accuracy at 100yds but the ES/SD was all over the place.
For sake of the example, would groups be different at 100 yards with a basic load with different brass?

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[grfox92]

Different brass will yield different enough outcomes that it’s just not good. I’d at least sort by brand if you’re loading. You don’t need a million pieces of brass. 200 should be good. Hopefully you’ve got some Lake City in there.

Or just buy 500 bone frog 77tmk loads new and there’s your brass forever.

Yea ill have yo go ahead and just sort it..ive got tons of green brass boxes to sort by brand. I do have some LC.

I might to a test with 10 same pieces of brass and 10 mixed head stamps.

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[deer_hunter132]

i would load on the slightly lighter than your typical max load, that way if some cases are lower in capacity, its not OP.

 

[Moose83]

I have a ton of 5.56 and .223 brass. Mixed head stamps/ brands. If im loading basic book loads with book OAL, will there be a meaningfull difference in POI for training purposes, shooting steel?

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I haven't found it to make any meaningful difference within 200 yds for practicing positional stuff but I haven't stretched it out much past that.

 

[Cherokeeguide]

I have a ton of 5.56 and .223 brass. Mixed head stamps/ brands. If im loading basic book loads with book OAL, will there be a meaningfull difference in POI for training purposes, shooting steel?

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I can't believe this is a real question.

If the "book" you're "loading basic book loads" from is the Sierra Bullets book, it lists the test components as FEDERAL cases trimmed to 1.750" and primed with Remington 7 1/2 primers. That's part of the "book loads" in that manual. If you're using mixed brass, you're not really following the book.


"Meaningful" is a relative term. There absolutely IS "a meaningful difference in POI for training purposes" for me in using mixed headstamps / brands, which is why I don't do it. I segregate my brass by headstamp. Lake City in one container, Federal in another, Hornady Frontier in another, and so on. I'm not doing that for my own use, as I basically only shoot 5.56 NATO cartridges loaded in Lake City brass.

If I'm not hunting or shooting a CMP match, then the shooting I'm doing is practice for CMP matches. For me, that practice is a waste of time and money if it doesn't exactly duplicate the real thing, right down to the ammo used.

Here's a little example. In a CMP service rifle match, the first phase of the course of fire is slow-fire standing at the 200 yard line. Phase two is rapid-fire sitting and kneeling, also from 200 yards. The distance is exactly the same.

My 200 yard slow-fire standing zero and my 200 rapid-fire sitting / kneeling zero are NOT the same. I don't know a single CMP service rifle shooter who shoots the same zero for standing and rapid-fire prone, either. We're ALL taking out some elevation for the rapid-fire sitting / standing. How much varies by individual, but we all want it to be the same for us every time. Using the same ammo in practice that we shoot in matches insures my zeros for all four phases of the National Match course of fire are the same in practice as they are on match day.

I really don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble of hand-loading ammo and introduce the variable of different case volume in their hand-loads, on purpose. It isn't that hard to segregate cases by head stamp and then again by weight.

 

[Castle Rock]

That post is pretty funny

 

[grfox92]

I can't believe this is a real question.

If the "book" you're "loading basic book loads" from is the Sierra Bullets book, it lists the test components as FEDERAL cases trimmed to 1.750" and primed with Remington 7 1/2 primers. That's part of the "book loads" in that manual. If you're using mixed brass, you're not really following the book.


"Meaningful" is a relative term. There absolutely IS "a meaningful difference in POI for training purposes" for me in using mixed headstamps / brands, which is why I don't do it. I segregate my brass by headstamp. Lake City in one container, Federal in another, Hornady Frontier in another, and so on. I'm not doing that for my own use, as I basically only shoot 5.56 NATO cartridges loaded in Lake City brass.

If I'm not hunting or shooting a CMP match, then the shooting I'm doing is practice for CMP matches. For me, that practice is a waste of time and money if it doesn't exactly duplicate the real thing, right down to the ammo used.

Here's a little example. In a CMP service rifle match, the first phase of the course of fire is slow-fire standing at the 200 yard line. Phase two is rapid-fire sitting and kneeling, also from 200 yards. The distance is exactly the same.

My 200 yard slow-fire standing zero and my 200 rapid-fire sitting / kneeling zero are NOT the same. I don't know a single CMP service rifle shooter who shoots the same zero for standing and rapid-fire prone, either. We're ALL taking out some elevation for the rapid-fire sitting / standing. How much varies by individual, but we all want it to be the same for us every time. Using the same ammo in practice that we shoot in matches insures my zeros for all four phases of the National Match course of fire are the same in practice as they are on match day.

I really don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble of hand-loading ammo and introduce the variable of different case volume in their hand-loads, on purpose. It isn't that hard to segregate cases by head stamp and then again by weight.

I stopped reading your post after the first sentence.

Im going to go ahead and guess that you werent born with the knowledge you have on reloading.

Not sure where you came from, but im pretty sure you wont last.

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[grfox92]

I haven't found it to make any meaningful difference within 200 yds for practicing positional stuff but I haven't stretched it out much past that.

If it didn't make a difference at 200 I doubt that would change at distance.

All I want to do it be able to load up for my 11 year old to get in a lot of reps before hunting season is year. It is his first year hunting big game, so I want to get a good zero and stretch him out on steel.

Im going to sort the brass and see how much matching stuff I have, but when I do start loading im going to do a 10 round group with matching head stamp, and a 10 round group all with 10 different headstamps and and document what happens.

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[PC356]

If it didn't make a difference at 200 I doubt that would change at distance.

All I want to do it be able to load up for my 11 year old to get in a lot of reps before hunting season is year. It is his first year hunting big game, so I want to get a good zero and stretch him out on steel.

Im going to sort the brass and see how much matching stuff I have, but when I do start loading im going to do a 10 round group with matching head stamp, and a 10 round group all with 10 different headstamps and and document what happens.

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It’s not a good idea. Different brands of brass can have different powder capacities, hence different pressures. Best case they just shoot to differing points of impact, it’s not worth the worst case. Why not control the controllables and at the very least use just the matching brass you have? Could see doing it in a pinch possibly but if you’ve got a ton of matching headstamps…

 

[Formidilosus]

I have a ton of 5.56 and .223 brass. Mixed head stamps/ brands. If im loading basic book loads with book OAL, will there be a meaningfull difference in POI for training purposes, shooting steel?

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Once again, a bunch of people responding definitively with what will happen….. because they “think” or “believe” so. Seems to be an uptick in that lately in the technical discussions.


You’ll have to try it with your load. The standard load of 77gr TMK, 23.5gr 8208, 2.26” coal- works in LC, Starline, and Winchester brass, has the same POI at 100 yards, and same elevation at 500 yards. I have used those cases and load interchangeably without issue for 20,000 plus rounds and a couple dozen rifles. So too does nearly everyone in my group.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

If it didn't make a difference at 200 I doubt that would change at distance.

All I want to do it be able to load up for my 11 year old to get in a lot of reps before hunting season is year. It is his first year hunting big game, so I want to get a good zero and stretch him out on steel.

Im going to sort the brass and see how much matching stuff I have, but when I do start loading im going to do a 10 round group with matching head stamp, and a 10 round group all with 10 different headstamps and and document what happens.

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I grew up in a household where load development was a lot more relaxed. My dad never tried to max out pressure. We didn’t have anything to measure velocity. My brother still has a case of ammo my dad loaded for his 30S and his FN .30-06. It’s mixed military brass that originally came linked (surplus machine gun ammo). Once we fired off the FMJ’s at groundhogs, we reloaded it. The stuff always shot really well with 50 grains of 4064 and a 150-grain spitzer bullet. It killed tons of deer and my dad shot a few turkeys in the head with it using the 30S.

Would I use that same brass today? Yes. Would it be my first choice? No. Would I really try to push the envelope with it? No.

In my current situation, I tend to sort brass by head stamp and use each brand for different bullet and load combination. But I have never worried about it all being from the same lot and I almost never buy new brass. For me, it’s more about being able to identify the ammo because I know I loaded the 134-grain ELDMs in old 3-4x fired R-P brass, but I loaded the 117-grain Gamekings in once fired Federal brass (for example).

Be sane about it. Don’t step on it too hard. I personally don’t bother to reload .223, but I do save the brass in case I ever change my mind. I don’t find it so hard to come by that I would ever have to use mixed head-stamp brass.

 

[Ozarkansas]

It’s not a good idea. Different brands of brass can have different powder capacities, hence different pressures. Best case they just shoot to differing points of impact, it’s not worth the worst case. Why not control the controllables and at the very least use just the matching brass you have? Could see doing it in a pinch possibly but if you’ve got a ton of matching headstamps…

I think as long as he does a safe work up, it would be worth trying. I have a bullet/powder combo for my 6.5x55 (gold dots and Staball 6.5) that shoots every variation I’ve tried so far into the same POI. My pressure ladder was a sub-MOA group and brass type or whether it’s new or not doesn’t seem to impact accuracy in a meaningful way, nor does seating depth. Granted my furthest shot on game has been 130 yards so my accuracy standards are lower than a lot of y’all’s.

@grfox92 as long as you work up safely, the worst case scenario is that there’s unacceptable variance between brass types, or that you hit pressure limits with one brass type too soon for it to work. The best case scenario is that you end up with a Goldilocks load like mine that shoots good enough for hunting regardless of how you load it.

 

[Matt5266]

I load mixed range pick up brass in different calibers all the time and shoot a fair amount of it. Its mostly for handguns and ARs so haven't tracked precision. But loading them mild ive never had issues with reliability or pressure.

For my bolt guns I dont like too , only because I want to try to still make my plinking or practice loads as accurate as possible. For that reason I try to eliminate as my variables as possible. And I have access to quite a bit of LC brass so I just use that. With bolt guns im way more anal, to the point I know im wasting time in some aspects.

I look forward to your results on mixed brass. I might do the same here soon as well just for science.

 

[PC356]

I think as long as he does a safe work up, it would be worth trying. I have a bullet/powder combo for my 6.5x55 (gold dots and Staball 6.5) that shoots every variation I’ve tried so far into the same POI. My pressure ladder was a sub-MOA group and brass type or whether it’s new or not doesn’t seem to impact accuracy in a meaningful way, nor does seating depth. Granted my furthest shot on game has been 130 yards so my accuracy standards are lower than a lot of y’all’s.

@grfox92 as long as you work up safely, the worst case scenario is that there’s unacceptable variance between brass types, or that you hit pressure limits with one brass type too soon for it to work. The best case scenario is that you end up with a Goldilocks load like mine that shoots good enough for hunting regardless of how you load it.

To each their own man
I just know for me personally there’s enough variables to reloading without introducing another potential factor. My OCD won’t allow it lol. I have however only ever reloaded .223/5.56 in Starline or NAS3 cases. In a shit hits the fan scenario I could sure see where having a “Goldilocks” load that works in multiple different cases would be quite valuable.

 

[grfox92]

I grew up in a household where load development was a lot more relaxed. My dad never tried to max out pressure. We didn’t have anything to measure velocity. My brother still has a case of ammo my dad loaded for his 30S and his FN .30-06. It’s mixed military brass that originally came linked (surplus machine gun ammo). Once we fired off the FMJ’s at groundhogs, we reloaded it. The stuff always shot really well with 50 grains of 4064 and a 150-grain spitzer bullet. It killed tons of deer and my dad shot a few turkeys in the head with it using the 30S.

Would I use that same brass today? Yes. Would it be my first choice? No. Would I really try to push the envelope with it? No.

In my current situation, I tend to sort brass by head stamp and use each brand for different bullet and load combination. But I have never worried about it all being from the same lot and I almost never buy new brass. For me, it’s more about being able to identify the ammo because I know I loaded the 134-grain ELDMs in old 3-4x fired R-P brass, but I loaded the 117-grain Gamekings in once fired Federal brass (for example).

Be sane about it. Don’t step on it too hard. I personally don’t bother to reload .223, but I do save the brass in case I ever change my mind. I don’t find it so hard to come by that I would ever have to use mixed head-stamp brass.

This is where Im at. Ive said it many times in the forum, I dont chase loads in my reloading. My 6.5cm match gun, I loaded 140Ms at factory OAL at max book loads of 4350 and it shot under an inch at 100 yards. Done, I will do nothing further.

My 7mm08 hunting rifle, loaded to max magazine length, .2 grains over "max" i hit everything i shoot at out to 1000 yards. Terminal velocity out to 950 yards. Done. I wont tinker and try to get more.

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[grfox92]

Once again, a bunch of people responding definitively with what will happen….. because they “think” or “believe” so. Seems to be an uptick in that lately in the technical discussions.


You’ll have to try it with your load. The standard load of 77gr TMK, 23.5gr 8208, 2.26” coal- works in LC, Starline, and Winchester brass, has the same POI at 100 yards, and same elevation at 500 yards. I have used those cases and load interchangeably without issue for 20,000 plus rounds and a couple dozen rifles. So too does nearly everyone in my group.

This was my thought. Im talking about loading factory seconds for my son to practice positional shooting at steel. Ill probably go somewhere between min and max loads. Im not building crazy pressure or hot rodding anything. Just loaing a basic white boy load and getting in range time.

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[grfox92]

Anyone ever shoot Midsouth Shooters MatchMonster bullets? @Formidilosus

Im thinking 69gr Hollow Point Boat Tails. Its for a 1-9 DPSM gas gun with a Preferred Heavy barrel. If he hunts with the gun im looking at 69 or 73gr ELDMS, so keeping it close in weight would be nice.

I just want to order something with a decent probability of shooting well, instead of ordering BS 55gr FMJs that don't have a reputation for being great.

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