A few memes and already called a troll for having a different opinion. Energy is connected to terminal performance , and bullet construction can give a smaller cartridge a larger than typical cartridge wounding performance on game it likewise can give a larger cartridge smaller than potential wounding. We are going around in circles here.
I give up. Re-read my posts. I can’t argue points I have not made.
A few memes and already called a troll for having a different opinion. Energy is connected to terminal performance , and bullet construction can give a smaller cartridge a larger than typical cartridge wounding performance on game it likewise can give a larger cartridge smaller than potential wounding. We are going around in circles here.
Got real quiet with the 223 rem example I gave though. I feel like most people inside know that this is a bad idea. I’ve read it on a post years ago. You may get a mouse to nearly the speed of a cat, but at the end of the day the cat still eats.
The same applies to the 223. You may get a 223 Rem to nearly the wounding potential of a big magnum, but at the end of the day the more energy (mass/velocity) is going to create a bigger wound WITH an equally/appropriately match bullet construction to that increased mass/ velocity. The 223 can be extremely lethal killing very quickly in some cases (proven countless times by now on this thread), however if you wander too far out of the velocity/ mass and bullet construction, or shot placement parameters you may experience slower kills or unrecovered game.
This is the fine print on using a small cartridge with low energy and the wrong bullet construction. It frankly doesn’t get mentioned enough. If you think a big magnum can be slow killing with a mismatched bullet try it with a 223 and it can get way worse. It should be stated over and over because at the end of the day you are not on the receiving end of it. There is a living breathing animal that is going to die and your decisions greatly affect how quick, clean, and painless that experience is.
Like it or not the mass, velocity, and narrow bullet selection for this type of construction is a limiting factor in the 223 Rem. And it’s effectiveness at quickly killing game.
[mention]10E [/mention] welcome the aboard.
You do make some valid points. Apples to apples the larger caliber will create a larger wound, also at a cost others have chimed in with, more recoil etc. At some point though how big is too big for a wound? I also disagree with your statement about a larger caliber has more room for error with shot placement with folks using off the shelf hunting ammo. You will have a bigger margin for error with a smaller caliber match type bullet vs a larger caliber traditional hunting bullet. FT LBS of energy really don’t have much to with “killing power” The following pictures are examples of such.
300 PRC
205 Berger Elite Hunter
2950 fps 3980 ft lbs at impact
40 yard shot
Deer went 80 yards zero blood on ground
Entrance
Insides
Exit - bullet did not exit completely. Bullet was caught under hide.
223
77 TMK
2650 fps 1200 ft lbs at impact
75 yard shot
Deer went 50 yards with a blood trail
Pointing at impact bullet did not exit
Insides
Point being more energy from a larger caliber doesn’t equal more margin for error. Both these shots were close range. I wouldn’t consider these bullets equals but do consider the Berger more frangible then a traditional hunting bullets. I would consider wound channels very similar in damage probably with the 223 being a bit more destructive even. The other benefit is A LOT less recoil with the 223 and actually being able to keep animal in scope after the shot.
Also shot a few deer with a 6.5 cm and a 130 tmk this season. Wound channel better than pictured 300prc and again significantly less recoil. Less ft lbs of energy as well.
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I appreciate this response and this will be my last post on this thread. It’s interesting that my motives have been questioned multiple times by multiple people. If I agreed with everything in the posts and bashed the opposition would my motives be questioned the same?
in my defense the title of this thread is kinda geared to “stir the pot” and buck the conventional/traditional wisdom (some of which is I agree 100% very wrong) and get people to open their minds to new ideas and evidence. I apologize if I took the check/opposition on some of those points made too far. I don’t mean to offend anyone one with my posts. just felt a little one sided is all. Merry Christmas to everyone! Happy to be here!
A few memes and already called a troll for having a different opinion. Energy is connected to terminal performance , and bullet construction can give a smaller cartridge a larger than typical cartridge wounding performance on game it likewise can give a larger cartridge smaller than potential wounding. We are going around in circles here.I give up. Re-read my posts. I can’t argue points I have not made.
Got real quiet with the 223 rem example I gave though. I feel like most people inside know that this is a bad idea. I’ve read it on a post years ago. You may get a mouse to nearly the speed of a cat, but at the end of the day the cat still eats.
The same applies to the 223. You may get a 223 Rem to nearly the wounding potential of a big magnum, but at the end of the day the more energy (mass/velocity) is going to create a bigger wound WITH an equally/appropriately match bullet construction to that increased mass/ velocity. The 223 can be extremely lethal killing very quickly in some cases (proven countless times by now on this thread), however if you wander too far out of the velocity/ mass and bullet construction, or shot placement parameters you may experience slower kills or unrecovered game.
This is the fine print on using a small cartridge with low energy and the wrong bullet construction. It frankly doesn’t get mentioned enough. If you think a big magnum can be slow killing with a mismatched bullet try it with a 223 and it can get way worse. It should be stated over and over because at the end of the day you are not on the receiving end of it. There is a living breathing animal that is going to die and your decisions greatly affect how quick, clean, and painless that experience is.
Like it or not the mass, velocity, and narrow bullet selection for this type of construction is a limiting factor in the 223 Rem. And it’s effectiveness at quickly killing game.
could you expand on this a bit more? What made you think this happened?
Yes most definitely. Before I understood bear anatomy I hit a black bear too far forward on the shoulder (bear vitals are a bit farther back compared to a deer). The bear rolled over and ran off. There was even a nice blood trail. But I never found that bear. I looked till dark then tried some more the next day. The trail faded out and I gave up following random game trails when I realized the meat and hide would be wasted anyway. I felt terrible. Oh yes the rifle was a 375 Ruger with Nosler Partitions. So the bigger gun didn't really help. A better placed shot or a quick follow up would have solved that problem but not a bigger gun.
That is a very good example that hitting the vitals is what matters.
Have had the exact same happen with black bears with 308 / 30-06 hitting too far forward. Blood trails quit and those bears survived the shot, your bear may have as well. I know mine survived because I ended up going up a mountain after a black bear a couple of weeks later, killed it and then realized it was the one I'd shot 2 weeks prior from the healed wound (and/or finding my previous bullet in the shoulder). Believe it or not, this has happened to me twice - I'm a slow learner. Have also shot a black bear with someone else's 30 caliber bullet in its hip. They're tough if they're not hit right, and not if they are. Obviously placement trumps caliber in these cases. Incorrect hits cause losses far more often than caliber/cartridge choice, IME.
Rokslide proverb
I give up. Re-read my posts. I can’t argue points I have not made.
