.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

[Formidilosus]

Grizzly/brown bears are flesh and blood but I was wondering about getting adequate penatration because their chests tend to be more rounded compared to a similar sized ungulate.
Theoretically I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if a given bullet could fully pentrate the vitals of an elk or smaller grizzly but run out of steam on a really big brown bear to the point that it's doing significantly less damage to the second lung. That would still kill obviously but maybe not as fast.

Negative. While a big bear might be thicker inside the chest cavity, that’s all lungs- which is just this side of tougher than air. Lung tissue doesn’t stop bullets- hide, muscle, and bone does. In that regard, the largest bear is about like an elk for a bullet. Maybe less.

I hope we get a good autopsy report. A 223 fully punching both lungs would be the final thing for me. A failure would just mean we found the ceiling for a .223.

Alaskans kill the smack out of brown and grizzly bears every year with 223’s. Usually with crap 55gr FMJ’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

my guess is that there is a history of people using large cartridges with hard bullets, with narrow wound channels making said large cartridges seem almost not enough

Exactly. Just like people do with elk.

 

[9.3koolaid]

Exactly. Just like people do with elk.

and goats to a crazy extent

 

[Formidilosus]

and goats to a crazy extent

Very much so.

 

[Luke S]

Form I don't disagree about the chest of a bear being mostly lung.

I guess a better statement is this. To really convince everyone a .223 works we need to see a large bear hit in the chest cavity with an adequate wound channel, probably stopping just under the far side hide. That would put the argument to rest more clearly.

 

[FCCDerek]

Form I don't disagree about the chest of a bear being mostly lung.

I guess a better statement is this. To really convince everyone a .223 works we need to see a large bear hit in the chest cavity with an adequate wound channel, probably stopping just under the far side hide. That would put the argument to rest more clearly.

I figured a big dead brown bear that died from two shots from a 223 should be a good sign.

 

[Luke S]

Yes it's a good sign, assuming no new information that makes it sound sub optimal. I just want the full details. I'd love to see pictures. BTW the bear in my avatar is a similar size. I might have some wound pictures from it somewhere (.375). Could be a fun comparison.

 

[Grundy53]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

Just the potential repercussions if you mess up.

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[Dbevans]

Went for a snow machine ride after work and found some tracks. Followed the tracks a mile til we saw the bear climbing a hill. Rushed over there got under 200 yards. 1st shot high shoulder to break the shoulder blade and also get the lungs. The bear fell and started rolling down the hill, got up was biting at its shoulder. Started up the hill so I shot it again at maybe 200 yards heart lung got up over the hill so we climbed up and found it dead at the top. The bear is between 8-8.5 feet. Ive seen bears drop and die in there spot with 1 shot and some take 5-10 heart lungs and still run.


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Hornady black fmjs didn’t take any pictures because it was getting late


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[Tmac]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

In terms of what it takes to kill them no. In terms of what can happen if you make a bad shot, yes. I’d rather follow-up on a wounded elk than a wounded grizz. That said, folks have managed to be killed by whitetail deer.

 

[Formidilosus]

In terms of what it takes to kill them no. In terms of what can happen if you make a bad shot, yes. I’d rather follow-up on a wounded elk than a wounded grizz. That said, folks have managed to be killed by whitetail deer.

What does that have to do with anatomy?

It’s just an animal. They are killed without issue every year by pointed sticks.

 

[BLJ]

I’m guessing 62 grain FMJ.
From an AR15.

Hornady black fmjs didn’t take any pictures because it was getting late


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Called it.

 

[Tmac]

What does that have to do with anatomy?

It’s just an animal. They are killed without issue every year by pointed sticks.

As I said in my post, in terms of what it takes to kill them nothing. The “what it takes to kill them” part would seem to cover anatomy, method, etc. Yes?

It is just an animal, yep. Pointed sticks kill them all the time, for sure. So do rifle bullets. None of which is my point.

But my point was about what one may have to deal with should it be required to follow up on a wounded one. That’s the difference compared to most NA game. You asked what made them different, that is my answer. So I’d suggest in that respect they are very different than most NA animals. So that’s the difference I was alluding to, maybe I did not make that clear.

 

[Formidilosus]

As I said in my post, in terms of what it takes to kill them nothing. The “what it takes to kill them” part would seem to cover anatomy, method, etc. Yes?

It is just an animal, yep. Pointed sticks kill them all the time, for sure. So do rifle bullets. None of which is my point.

But my point was about what one may have to deal with should it be required to follow up on a wounded one. That’s the difference compared to most NA game. You asked what made them different, that is my answer. So I’d suggest in that respect they are very different than most NA animals. So that’s the difference I was alluding to, maybe I did not make that clear.

Ah. I understand what you meant now.
.

 

[Tmac]

Ah. I understand what you meant now.
.

Ya, maybe I should have added in temperament. Kind of where I was going with the difference if wounded.

 

[JackButler]

Other than a bit of extra thickness, there isn't. Muscle, bone, fur, skin, etc. Same as any other animal, just scaled up a bit.

There’s nothing magical of course. It’s just there’s a lot MORE muscle bone etc to get through than a whitetail or elk. Plus, if you don’t get it right the consequences are significantly higher. But there’s no question if you shoot anything in the right place with a .223 it will die.

 

[Formidilosus]

There’s nothing magical of course. It’s just there’s a lot MORE muscle bone etc to get through than a whitetail or elk.

No there’s not. Bears are predators, and predators are light boned. Bear “muscle” isn’t any tougher than “deer” muscle.

 

[JackButler]

No there’s not. Bears are predators, and predators are light boned. Bear “muscle” isn’t any tougher than “deer” muscle.

Nobody said it was. There’s just a lot more of it. Hence the amount of muscle you need to penetrate to get to vitals is more.

 

[Formidilosus]

Nobody said it was. There’s just a lot more of it. Hence the amount of muscle you need to penetrate to get to vitals is more.

How much more?

 

[roosiebull]

roosiebull I think yes and no.

First, if an elk runs 100 yards in a semi open area that is no big deal. You probably won't think of it as much different than a DRT elk. A grizzly that runs 100 yards is going to get your blood pumping because you either have a gun fight on your hands or you are frantically trying to finish it off wondering if you'll have a rodeo in the alders. Same reason why lots of people hunt elk with bows but doing the same thing to a grizzly is considered rolling the dice a bit.

I get that, and have a good grasp on that type of situation, I have been in a position with a large black bear that a poor shot was made on, and it was in brush you couldn’t see 5 yds in… he growled, I heard brush crashing, and then saw brush moving coming at me but couldn’t see anything but flashes of black as he approached, I didn’t look through the scope, just pointed the muzzle and shot, at spitting distance and luckily that turned him, and I finally saw him on the other side of the brush choked ditch and ended that situation… that scenario had nothing to do with cartridge size, and everything to do with the initial shot

I’m very picky with my initial shot on a bear for that reason, and black or brown bear doesn’t matter, if you have a bear wounded in the brush, it’s a bad situation, and a mistake was made on the initial shot, and a 30 cal accubond doesn’t bail you out of a bad shot… a 6.5 match bullet probably wouldn’t either, but it would be a better scenario.

More than any other critter, I want a soft bullet for bear (that wouldn’t change with bear species) that violently disrupts

After the scenario above, I’m even more picky with shot placement on bear, I know the only way to avoid drama is a shot angle that’s easy to tell where to shoot. I wouldn’t take a frontal chest shot most likely, I want a stationary broadside or slightly quartered shot, and I don’t care if I have to let one walk, I like hunting bear a lot more than killing bear, I’m never desperate to get a shot.

If I kill a bear this year, it will be a 77gr tmk, and would have no issue shooting a brown bear with the same bullet, it makes a lot bigger wound than an arrow, and if I ever get the chance to hunt them, it would be with my bow, with a large cut head like a German kinetic XL, because I know penetration wouldn’t be an issue